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Body sizing only?.....Neck sizing?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2009 at 12:47
sniper13 View Drop Down
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Hey guys I have a friend that is real good with reloading an he told me to get a body sizing only die and a neck sizing die if I wanted improved accuracy and to cut my groups in 1/2. Is this possible and why?
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Can't say I've ever heard of a body sizing die only. Perhaps he meant a FL die?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2009 at 13:17
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That would be my thought too Roy.  neck sizing allows the casing to be shot sized to your chamber.  Brass has to be reused in same gun.  Case fits snugger once shot sized, Neck sizing is what holds the bullets.  Final part of this equation if you want to hunt with these reloads it is recommneded to use a Lee Factory crimp die to increase holding power on bullets.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2009 at 14:05
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Redding makes a body sizing die.  You use it when you are neck sizing only and after multiple reloads your brass gets too tight in the camber.  Instead of full length you use the body die which does not do the neck. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2009 at 15:00
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With a FL die, you can do partial-FL resizing, where you set the case back only .001-.002. You will need a case comparator such as the Hornady (Stoney Point) to do this. The advantages are that you get a less sloppy fit (relatively speaking) to the chamber, similar to neck sizing only, but because you are resizing the neck and setting the shoulder back a bit and - to a lesser degree - the case body, you avoid (for more firings anyway) the eventual need to FL-resize and trim brass that has only been neck-sized. Another benefit as opposed to FL-resizing is that you work the brass less, extending case life.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2009 at 16:44
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With all the guns that I reload for I have Redding 3 die sets. I never try to use ammo from one gun to the next, so if I get to the point where a particular round becomes hard to chamber, I simply run it through the FL die and rock on. I have been known to load on the warm side, so in all honesty, I have usually experienced loose primer pockets first before signs of a round in need of a trip through the FL die.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2009 at 17:43
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Originally posted by sniper13 sniper13 wrote:

Hey guys I have a friend that is real good with reloading an he told me to get a body sizing only die and a neck sizing die if I wanted improved accuracy and to cut my groups in 1/2. Is this possible and why?
 
You need to listen to that guy, especially if he mentioned the Lee Collet Neck Sizer / Redding Body Die combination.
 
The Lee Collet Neck Sizer sizes the neck against a free floating mandrel.  When you fire a case in your chamber the neck brass is ironed onto the chamber walls and comes out very concentric (at least most of the chambers are reamed very concentric) and the Lee Collet floats to find the center of the neck and then the collets compress the neck brass onto the mandrel.  That makes for a neck with very little runout.
 
The Redding Body Die sizes the case body only and can be set to push the shoulder back but it does not touch the neck (which you have just sized with the Lee Collet).  The advantages are that you are getting rid of the expander ball which is the largest contributor to runout and lube inside the neck.
 
Those 2 dies can be bought for about the same as 1 full length die so cost is not a problem.
 
Another advantage is that you can neck size only until the case has expanded enough to become hard to chamber.  Then you use the Body Die to push the shoulder back a minimal amount of .001" or so.  You can measure that if you have a Hornady Headspace Gauge or just set your rifle up and repeatedly chamber and size until you go from a crush fit to just a slight contact at the shoulder which is indicated by a very slight crush fit.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2009 at 17:58
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Guys I consider Sakomato 1 of the top 3 reloading authorities on the OT, listen to him!  He has help me alot! 
 
Speaking of which, Bob you posted something last week where you were steelwooling the necks and applying Mica?  Would you please tell us more on that.
 
Sorry guys I don't mean to steal your thread, maybe Bob could start a new one.  I am always interested in improving my groups and my 223 already regularly groups at 1/2"
 


Edited by budperm - August/06/2009 at 17:59
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2009 at 18:21
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To me it's an abject waste of time unless you shoot a pure bench rest heavy rifle from a solid bench and heavy rest.
 
If your rifle has a spring loaded ejector and snap over extractor then you've already induced so much more error into the equation than the body/neck combo could ever account for.
 
F/L size new brass, trim to length, shoot, neck size until he shoulder needs to be bumped back, which is quite a few firings.  At that time, F/L size, trim to length, shoot, neck size, repeat as needed.
 
You'll be much better served to spend much more time at the range rather than the loading room.
It's a proven equation for better shooting.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2009 at 18:23
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Sakomato....that is exactly what he says to get...and I did...it will be here tomarrow, Thanks!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2009 at 21:31
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Okay, there are several things to chase and a mixed opinion about how much good it does (reference Mike McDonald's post).  The thing is, case prep is what really interests me.  If it doesn't interest you and you want to do the basics then you will do almost as well by concentrating on your rifle and shooting as Mike says.  If you enjoy creating the very best reloads then I can tell you how I do it.

The Lee Collet and Redding Body Die are an inexpensive way to load straight ammo.  There are other ways such as the Redding Bushing Dies but they are more complicated and neck turning is necessary.

About the Lee Collet;

They do not create a lot of bullet grip.  IOW, the mandrel is only .001" to .002" below bullet caliber.  That is one of the ways the Lee Collet keeps runout down.  I ordered some smaller mandrels from Lee and they specifically warned me that a tighter bullet grip would lead to more runout.  It is generally considered that any gripper tighter than .003" is counter productive anyway so the typical Lee Collet bullet grip of .001" is a little light but will do the job.
 
When sizing the neck it feels like you are not doing anything.  The die does not work like any other die in that you set the press so that it does not cam over.  The collets squeeze on the outside of the neck with 25 pounds of force on the lever or so.  If you put too much pressure on the die by camming over or leaning on the lever too much and you will pop the cap on the die.  The instructions say to adjust it down to the shell holder, lower the ram and adjust it 2 more full turns in.  I just run the lock nut up to the top of the threads which puts the lever in the most horizontal position
 
here is some further discussion and opinions (I am woods) http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f28/lee-collet-dies-44360/
 
The Redding Body Die sizes the case body and enables you to push the shoulder back.  A case goes through a transition from new to 3 or 4 firings when it has expanded enough for the case to get in a bind when trapped between the bolt face and the chamber shoulder.  You can monitor this with a Hornady Headspace Gauge which takes measurement from the bolt face to the datum line
 
new case - 2.040"
once fired - 2.0485"
twice fired - 2.050"
3 times fired - 2.051" (slight crush fit)
4 times fired - 2.0515" (crush fit)
 
then it is time to push the shoulder back to 2.0505" or 2.051" for a slight contact at the shoulder. 
 
Now contrary to what Mike McDonald said, IMO after the first firing the ejector button can no long push the case to one side in the chamber because the case body has expanded and prevents this.  So neck sizing with no runout will center the bullet down the leade to the lands for a good start.
 
An exception to this would be if you have brass that is off center to begin with.  If you have brass that has more than .002" variance in neck thickness from one side to the other then that case will always have runout if measured on the bullet and even neck turning can not correct it
 
good brass is a prerequisite to consistant reduction in group size.
 
Personally I have beaten runout back into it's nasty little hole and am working on bullet grip and seating depth.  Bullets that are seated with a variance as little as .005" will have a slightly different point of impact.  If you combine several shots that vary in seating depth then your group size will be larger.
 
In order to make seating depth consistant then you have to control the inside of your neck.  Next time you are seating a set of bullets, feel the resistance and measure each one with a comparator.  If you feel one that is harder to seat than the others, measure it and you will see that you have a slightly longer OAL.  Any difference in seating pressure will change the OAL.  In my efforts to control the inside neck, I use pin gauges to get an accurate measurement and check for narrow spots or do-nuts and to check my consistancy
 
and thoroughly clean the inside of the neck with steel wool
 
and apply mica
 
In doing all this I have gone through a complete set of seating bullets and not had any variance in OAL and my velocities have shown a vast improvement is standard deviation.  My last 5 shots with my 338RUM were chonoed at 3191, 3182, 3182, 3189, 3189 and 3197 fps.  These 4 shots with my 6.5 rem mag were all very very close except for one
 
guess which one was slower than the others.
 
Now if all this seems kinda anal, it is.  But like I said that is what interests me and it has been a cumulative effect and my rifles are shooting good and it satisfies my inquisitive nature.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2009 at 21:33
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can i hire you to do all of my reloading??
you already have dies for most of my gunsExcellent


Edited by pyro6999 - August/06/2009 at 21:41
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2009 at 22:12
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Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

can i hire you to do all of my reloading??
you already have dies for most of my gunsExcellent
 
And deny you all that pleasure pyro!!  Head Banger
 
Get back with me in about 10 years when I retire (if I can afford to after Obummer ruins the economy) and we'll talk!
 
Really, this is just hitting the high spots without a lot of detail and hasn't gotten into reaming, weight sorting, neck turning, segregating (sp?) cases by number of firings, do-nuts, physically removing existing runout and a few others I've forgotten about right now.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2009 at 23:49
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Start with good brass. I have plenty of plinking brass but go with Lapua for the shots that count.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2009 at 06:54
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Wow Bob!  Thanks for taking the time to generate and share that report.  It cleared up several things I was confused about.
 
I am really enjoying my new Savage 12BTV in .223.  After starting and shooting Armscor Milsurp with poor results I bought virgin Hornady brass.  I only reamed and chamfered the mouths and press in CCI 450 Mag Sm rifle primers.  Using 26gr of Varget I have tried Sierra Spitzers, HPBT in 55gr and Hornady V-Max  and Moly V-Max and V-Max w/ cannelure in 55gr.
Groups vary from 0.75 to 0.38" @ 100yds.
I found that on the 2nd reload my groups tightened up for the same bullet.  This I attributed to shot sizing effects.
 
I am very happy with the results so far.  One of the things I noticed while cleaning the primer pocket prior to the 2nd reload was that I saw a few casings that the thru hole was noticably off center.  Besides the fact that ejecting the primer durng neck sizing might damage the mandrel's primer ejector pin do you feel that the hole being off center will cause a flyer or effect the POI?
 
What do you think of Hornady brass?  I originally bought it because of availability and a compromise between cost and quality.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2009 at 08:59
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Hey sakomato, thanks for your input here.  I also like the Lee Neck Die with the Redding Body Die.  I get great groups using this method. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2009 at 09:02
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my question is this, is the neck die's brand important??? if i bought an rcbs neck die and then bought the redding  body die would that matter??
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2009 at 09:16
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Nope.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2009 at 09:21
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Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

my question is this, is the neck die's brand important??? if i bought an rcbs neck die and then bought the redding  body die would that matter??
 
I think it dependents on how th eneck sizing die is made.  The Lee die has a free floating mandrel that centers on the neck maintaining concentricity.  If I understand Sakomato correctly.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2009 at 09:21
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the reason i asked that is that it seems to me like using the lee collet neck sizer is a main factor to the equation??
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2009 at 09:26
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I believe one of the reasons sakomato uses the Lee Collet is because of the floating bushing it uses. Redding has the same thing, it's just more expensive.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2009 at 09:27
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what does redding call their version?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2009 at 09:43
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Not sure, I don't use them.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2009 at 09:50
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I looked and they have two. Standard and Competition "S" bushing dies.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2009 at 09:53
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i saw that, i wonder if the "S" types are that much better?
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