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Binocular Spec Data - Let the Buyer Beware

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Hi, I'm new to this forum and while I am not new to binoculars, I am new to checking all the spec data about them to find a quality pair at an affordable price.

Let the buyer beware:  I have been doing some light research, and I have found some interesting little facts like:

1.   'Fully multi-coated' doesn't mean all the the leases are really fully multi-coated
2.   APO (apochrmatic triplet) is a term that get tossed about quite easily in this business, but apparently no-one in our American companies tests the binoculars we get from China to see if the Chinese companies are actually delivering what they advertise.

I'm new to bino spec data, but I'm not new to the good ol' American (Chinese) snake oil pitch.

Would any one care to comment or give me some practical advice.

thanks,
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Sparrow:
 
Welcome to Optics Talk.
 
I do think you have to check things out before you buy a binocular.  Much the same as you buy
anything.  You can study all you wish on the net, and you will learn a lot.  
 
You mention you are not new to binoculars, and so you do know many here do have some advice
that you can use.
 
I would just fire away, as far as recommendations, on the size you are looking at, your budget,
and you know the rest.  Do consider some things, and that is warranty, "long term", and that
is where some mfrs. do have some differences.
 
I always mention, try before you buy, if possible, at one of the large sporting goods stores.
Then be sure to check out the sponsor here, SWFA, on the same optic, before you purchase. 
 
Jerry
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Very practical advice Jerry, thanks. Part of the reason I did join was to get practical advice from the pros.  I guess my main point is exactly what you suggest - pay a lot less attention to spec data, and take a lot more advice from the enthusiasts who can compare the reasonably priced stuff to the Alphas.  It seems that the spec data could be such an outrageous claim, we must rely on members who own the Zeiss, Swarofski, etc to try to get an accurate view (no pun intended) when the binos are new. 

Lifetime warranty might sound impressive, but who knows where these companies will be in the future when the glass gets hazy.  I think these American distributors should develop some very formal guidelines to check the claims of the Chinese manufacturers - Disect a pair before they pass the binos off to the American consumer, who already pay too much for smoke and mirrors (again, no pun intended)

I hate to sound like Ralph Nader, but hasn't the American consumer been ridden enough already?
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I could personally care less what sales pitch, marketing hype, etc is used.  I love he view and ergos of some glass a whole lot, like the Swaro SLC HD.  Others, not so much.  It's pretty simple, to me at least, just to try them for myself and decide if I want to keep them or not. 
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I like how the Chinese bins are fully broadband multicoated.

I read somewhere that no binocular manufacturer currently uses a truly apochromatic (APO) objective in their products.  I guess the focal length wouldn't make use of one anyway.  In binoculars it seems APO is just another marketing term used interchangeably with ED, HD, FL, and the like - referring to the use of ED glass in the objective.

sparrow,

welcome to the OT!  What kind of budget are you looking at, and what are the uses for this binocular?  Do you have a magnification or objective size preference?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/12/2011 at 12:43
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Yes, I understand that the final decision will be made by how well they perform, but I find it hard to believe that a consumer wouldn't care that some reputable companies are advertising falsely.  Do you work for SWFA?

Also, another word about performance.  When we purchase, we are evaluating performance now.  Where will the company be when the binos get hazy? (Lifetime Warranty?) Who knows the durability of the coating in the long run, because no-one I've spoken to so far has developed a test on this side of the Pacific to see if we are getting what the 'OEM' claims they are producing.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/12/2011 at 12:46
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But we don't know for sure if they are 'fully multi-coated or 'fully broadband multi-coated, or, if they are, we don't know the quality of the multi-coating.  For example, there are may different ways to paint a car.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/12/2011 at 13:10
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There is always a risk that a manufacturer may not be there if the product goes bad.  No matter what product you buy that is a risk. 

Think of it this way.  You can buy a pair of ChiCom binos for $400 that offers 90% of the optical quality of the big boys that sell for $1500 to $2000ish.  If in 4 or 5 years you decided they are not up to what they were 5 years ago.  Then just buy another pair.  You are still half the price or less of the big boys.  And now you have a brand new pair and a kick around pair.  If the company is out of business, oh well.  You got 5 years of good binos.

Or buy a brand like Meopta that also offer 90% of the optical quality but are proven to be just as tough and durable as the big boys for $800.  Meopta has been around for ever and you do not have to worry about them going away. 

So it comes down to you either pay extra money to feel gooder about your purchase or you take the risk and buy the ChiCom. 


Edited by supertool73 - September/12/2011 at 13:13
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

There is always a risk that a manufacturer may not be there if the product goes bad.  No matter what product you buy that is a risk. 

Think of it this way.  You can buy a pair of ChiCom binos for $400 that offers 90% of the optical quality of the big boys that sell for $1500 to $2000ish.  If in 4 or 5 years you decided they are not up to what they were 5 years ago.  Then just buy another pair.  You are still half the price or less of the big boys.  And now you have a brand new pair and a kick around pair.  If the company is out of business, oh well.  You got 5 years of good binos.

Or buy a brand like Meopta that also offer 90% of the optical quality but are proven to be just as tough and durable as the big boys for $800.  Meopta has been around for ever and you do not have to worry about them going away. 

So it comes down to you either pay extra money to feel gooder about your purchase or you take the risk and buy the ChiCom. 


Yes, I understand your point, but I find it hard to believe that most consumers would not be annoyed by the fact that a US company could claim their binos are 'fully broadband multi-coated' and have 'apochromatic triplets' when not only we don't know if that's true, even the American company themselves don't test to see if this is true.  As others have  noted, I think American companies are tossing these term around to advertise, when no-one know if the binos really have specs or not.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/12/2011 at 15:17
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sparrow,

Is there a certain binocular spec claim you want to know about?  As far as I know, the imported binocualrs claiming to be multicoated, dialectric phase-corrected, etc., do, in fact, use that technology.  I think there are a lot of importers that not only "dissect" the product from the OEM, but also provide design input, if not the overall design.  The importing company doesn't want the end user, or the importing company, to be ripped off.

My point about APO was that, in astronomy, APO has a fairly narrow definition, while in cameras and binoculars the definition seems broader.  This goes for the Chinese (Theron APO) and even German (Minox APO). 

My only affiliation with SWFA is fan-boy status.
Oh Yea Baby
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/12/2011 at 20:33
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I would be curious too of the specific models or companies you are referring to.
 
Other than the two models that Bitteroot posted I am not sure of any models that specifically comment on using an APO objective. A few spotters, yes, but no binoculars.
 
As for the term fully-multicoated...are you referring to the difference between multicoated and fully multicoated? There is a difference there. Multicoated means some, but not all, glass services are coated with multiple layers. I believe that term was used because at least one manufacturer originally chose to only employ one coating layer on the objective's outer surface because it was reportedly more scratch resistant. That manufacturer was Leica but it was many years and several models ago. Not sure if they continued to follow that practice with the last few generations of their bins.
 
I would be curious as to where you drew the conclusion that some manufacturer's are advertising fully multicoated without actually delivering. Did you determine this through some experimentation on your own or did you read it from a reliable source.
 
Definitely interesting areas to explore further.
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Originally posted by sparrow sparrow wrote:

Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

There is always a risk that a manufacturer may not be there if the product goes bad.  No matter what product you buy that is a risk. 

Think of it this way.  You can buy a pair of ChiCom binos for $400 that offers 90% of the optical quality of the big boys that sell for $1500 to $2000ish.  If in 4 or 5 years you decided they are not up to what they were 5 years ago.  Then just buy another pair.  You are still half the price or less of the big boys.  And now you have a brand new pair and a kick around pair.  If the company is out of business, oh well.  You got 5 years of good binos.

Or buy a brand like Meopta that also offer 90% of the optical quality but are proven to be just as tough and durable as the big boys for $800.  Meopta has been around for ever and you do not have to worry about them going away. 

So it comes down to you either pay extra money to feel gooder about your purchase or you take the risk and buy the ChiCom. 


Yes, I understand your point, but I find it hard to believe that most consumers would not be annoyed by the fact that a US company could claim their binos are 'fully broadband multi-coated' and have 'apochromatic triplets' when not only we don't know if that's true, even the American company themselves don't test to see if this is true.  As others have  noted, I think American companies are tossing these term around to advertise, when no-one know if the binos really have specs or not.
Sparrow:
 
I am wondering about just what your point is, and what US company you are referring to.  I think you
need to explain your reasons.  Smile
 
I don't like your tone, and coming down on "US" and "American" companies.
 
Lots of talk here, I am smelling a "rat" here. Big Smile  My radar has gone into high alert.
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2011 at 06:53
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Originally posted by Bitterroot Bulls Bitterroot Bulls wrote:

I like how the Chinese bins are fully broadband multicoated.

I read somewhere that no binocular manufacturer currently uses a truly apochromatic (APO) objective in their products.  I guess the focal length wouldn't make use of one anyway.  In binoculars it seems APO is just another marketing term used interchangeably with ED, HD, FL, and the like - referring to the use of ED glass in the objective.

sparrow,

welcome to the OT!  What kind of budget are you looking at, and what are the uses for this binocular?  Do you have a magnification or objective size preference?


Thanks for the warm welcome. 

My main point was that we don't really know if the Chinese bins are really fully broadband multi-coated.  Also, I have since read that there are several different ways to approach the dielectric coating as well, and I think most companies use the cheapest way.  Why is that significant?  Cheap coating wears off. 

But, to answer your question, I'll be using the binos for mostly birding, both in trees and at the shore.  I suppose the 8x are a reasonable mag, but I know most 7x would be more steady and have a wider field, right?

thanks


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2011 at 08:17
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I haven't heard of any controversy over whether or not Chinese bins are really multicoated.  I would guess they really are, due to their high levels of light transmission. 

Allbinos has measured light transmission through many Chinese bins, often finding them in line with other quality multicoated bins.  If they weren't multicoated, they would lose a lot of light.

I don't see much difference between 7x and 8x bins.  What is your budget?

Typical winners in various price ranges are:

Under $100 - Leupold Yosemite

Around $400 - Zen Ray ED3, Kruger Caldera

Around $800 - Meopta Meostar

Around $1200 - Vortex Razor HD

Money no object - Models from Zeiss, Swarovski, Leica, and Nikon EDG.
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Just an FYI there are a set of NIB Vortex Razors for a lot less in the for sale sectionWink
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Originally posted by sparrow sparrow wrote:


Yes, I understand your point, but I find it hard to believe that most consumers would not be annoyed by the fact that a US company could claim their binos are 'fully broadband multi-coated' and have 'apochromatic triplets' when not only we don't know if that's true, even the American company themselves don't test to see if this is true.  As others have  noted, I think American companies are tossing these term around to advertise, when no-one know if the binos really have specs or not.


Like I said before, look through them side by side and do a comparison yourself.  There's no way the avg Joe will understand or know all there is to know about glass, coatings, etc.  Start studying the ED/HD glass marketing hype and all you will do is confuse yourself, i.e. there are varying grades of ED glass, so one type of ED glass may be better than another type of ED glass, but they're both ED glass.  I'd quit worrying so much about what you're reading and do the comparisons yourself. 

If the name Leupold settles you down when other brand names do not, get a Gold ring HD bino and call it good.  They're fantastic. 
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I would agree with Bitterroot's post...both the comments related to your specific concerns and the suggestions as the various price points.
 
A direct comparison certainly seems like the easiest way to determine whether or not your concerns are well founded. A glass that is not fully-multicoated will obviously suffer in the optical performance area from one that is.
 
I certainly will not argue the issue of quality control when it comes to various Chinese manufactured binoculars. I have tried well over a dozen different binoculars of Chinese origin in recent months. Several of them suffered from notable quality control issues and poor optical performance. I think even the average user would have no problem discerning the differences between these units and ones that are usable. On the other hand I have also tried several Chinese manufactured binoculars, both from now common names like Zen Ray, and some uncommon ones that seriously question the need to pay much more for optical performance. Some of the designs these companies are manufacturing are truly surprising from an optical performance and a build quality standpoint. The painstaking part is going through the process of determining which are the good ones and which are not.
 
;-)
 
 
Originally posted by Bitterroot Bulls Bitterroot Bulls wrote:

I haven't heard of any controversy over whether or not Chinese bins are really multicoated.  I would guess they really are, due to their high levels of light transmission. 

Allbinos has measured light transmission through many Chinese bins, often finding them in line with other quality multicoated bins.  If they weren't multicoated, they would lose a lot of light.

I don't see much difference between 7x and 8x bins.  What is your budget?

Typical winners in various price ranges are:

Under $100 - Leupold Yosemite

Around $400 - Zen Ray ED3, Kruger Caldera

Around $800 - Meopta Meostar

Around $1200 - Vortex Razor HD

Money no object - Models from Zeiss, Swarovski, Leica, and Nikon EDG.
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Quality control issues are easily understood, and that's not at all what I was referring to in my last post. Aluminum v Dielectric, BAK4 v Schmidt, Lotutec v Rainguard, etc, etc ,etc are examples of what I'm talking about.  One can google all week long and may still not understand it all.  In 5 minutes you may see which is superior.    That's the point.  When you're big game hunting most all of the marketing jargon is meaningless anyway.    
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Originally posted by FrankD FrankD wrote:

 Other than the two models that Bitteroot posted I am not sure of any models that specifically comment on using an APO objective. A few spotters, yes, but no binoculars.
 
Frank,
 
William Optics sells APO binoculars. 
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Originally posted by sparrow sparrow wrote:

I suppose the 8x are a reasonable mag, but I know most 7x would be more steady and have a wider field, right?

thanks
Wider FOV for 7x50?  No
Wider FOV for 7x35?  Yes
 
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BW,
 
I saw that they had one listed as "semi-APO" ....whatever that means. I guess the question then is "What is the definition of an APO obective?"
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APO, ED, HD, fluoride...six of one, half a dozen of the other...all are superior quality glass when compared to standard versions. 
Depending on the company. optical manufactuting process, AND lens coatings..these are generally more important factors than whether one claims to use ED, HD or APO glass.
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Originally posted by NDhunter NDhunter wrote:

Originally posted by sparrow sparrow wrote:

Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

There is always a risk that a manufacturer may not be there if the product goes bad.  No matter what product you buy that is a risk. 

Think of it this way.  You can buy a pair of ChiCom binos for $400 that offers 90% of the optical quality of the big boys that sell for $1500 to $2000ish.  If in 4 or 5 years you decided they are not up to what they were 5 years ago.  Then just buy another pair.  You are still half the price or less of the big boys.  And now you have a brand new pair and a kick around pair.  If the company is out of business, oh well.  You got 5 years of good binos.

Or buy a brand like Meopta that also offer 90% of the optical quality but are proven to be just as tough and durable as the big boys for $800.  Meopta has been around for ever and you do not have to worry about them going away. 

So it comes down to you either pay extra money to feel gooder about your purchase or you take the risk and buy the ChiCom. 


Yes, I understand your point, but I find it hard to believe that most consumers would not be annoyed by the fact that a US company could claim their binos are 'fully broadband multi-coated' and have 'apochromatic triplets' when not only we don't know if that's true, even the American company themselves don't test to see if this is true.  As others have  noted, I think American companies are tossing these term around to advertise, when no-one know if the binos really have specs or not.
Sparrow:
 
I am wondering about just what your point is, and what US company you are referring to.  I think you
need to explain your reasons.  Smile
 
I don't like your tone, and coming down on "US" and "American" companies.
 
Lots of talk here, I am smelling a "rat" here. Big Smile  My radar has gone into high alert.
  
 
"Tone"?  Hey I'm not singing it, I'm just saying.  "Coming down on Good -ol' US and America" - hope you ain't calling me some kinda 'commie' or something!! Thems is fightin words!  Let's not forget these binos ae coming from Red China and you're buying them . Whose the commie now ; )
 
In all seriousness, I have read on several optics websites about the definitions of coated and fully coated, apochromatic triplets (APO). The terms get tossed around in adverstising, when we, the consumer don't really know what they are referring to.  Unfortunaltely, I don't have the opportunity to buy all of them, try them, and let you know. That's what I meant.
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"In all seriousness, I have read on several optics websites about the definitions of coated and fully coated, apochromatic triplets (APO). The terms get tossed around in adverstising, when we, the consumer don't really know what they are referring to.  Unfortunaltely, I don't have the opportunity to buy all of them, try them, and let you know. That's what I meant.
[/QUOTE]
So your complaint is that YOU do not have the KNOWLEDGE to understand what you read the advertisements. Many people do have or are willing to learn the terms. Then because YOU have not assigned YOUR seal of approval, then no one should purchase these products. Whacko This seems somewhat arrogant to me.
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Originally posted by 3_tens 3_tens wrote:

 
"In all seriousness, I have read on several optics websites about the definitions of coated and fully coated, apochromatic triplets (APO). The terms get tossed around in adverstising, when we, the consumer don't really know what they are referring to.  Unfortunaltely, I don't have the opportunity to buy all of them, try them, and let you know. That's what I meant.
So your complaint is that YOU do not have the KNOWLEDGE to understand what you read the advertisements. Many people do have or are willing to learn the terms. Then because YOU have not assigned YOUR seal of approval, then no one should purchase these products. Whacko This seems somewhat arrogant to me. [/QUOTE]

I guess I'll end this discussion here.  I thought I was making a good point about bad advertising on behalf of all of us consumers, but if I am going to be vilified for that, then good luck to all of you with your future purchases.
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