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Best Low Light 10 x 42 Binocular

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/09/2014 at 13:02
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Are there any tests that compare 10 x 42 Alpha Binoculars for low light conditions?

Has anyone here compared Swarovski  SV vs Zeiss FL or HT, Kowa Prominar, UV HD's?
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There have been numerous tests on light transmission-too many to list.

Zeiss and Swarovski have been the top dogs for several years now with Leica  lagging behind. Its the opinion of many that Leica needs to do some catching up.

The Zeiss HT has the highest transmission numbers but only in a very narrow transmission range.
The Zeiss FL is still a contender.
 
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The best low light binculars are the Zeiss FL 7x42. Or, their much larger siblings in 8x56 and 10x56.
Even the very best 10x42 are surpassed by their 7x and 8x siblings in low light.
You think that you need a 10x42, but you would actually see better with a 8x.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2014 at 09:07
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I have seen all of these binoculars, and I remember feeling like the HT was the brightest of the bunch, with probably the FL second.

However, every model listed is an excellent, bright 10X42, and some other feature may win out over apparent brightness in the final selection.

Originally posted by anweis anweis wrote:


You think that you need a 10x42, but you would actually see better with a 8x.

Hard to say what somebody else sees or thinks.

I am still a fan of the 10X42 configuration, myself.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2014 at 11:02
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Often when I see a thread started with a post like this one, I wonder if low light is really the ultimate driver of optics selection, or if they are really asking which binocular that works for the wide open spaces works best in low light.  In the selection process, you need to know which is what you need.  In the world, the selections come to two different binoculars if the purpose is single goal oriented.  In O-dark thirty situations, your target is likely not as far away from you as it might be, simply because if it was a fair piece removed from the optic, you would not be able to see it anyway.  As far as I am concerned, you need a good 7x50 or 8x56 that gets as much outside light as can be gotten.  Now, I full well realize the mystical "twilight factor" concoction tells us higher power is better.  That is because we supposedly see detail better with more magnification. The twilight factor formula is weighed in favor of higher magnification in the first place.  More magnification is, IMO, not needed so much in closer range low light scenarios as more light and better contrast.

So if the need is for a good all around binocular that works respectably in low light, just be prepared for the idea that it will sometimes come up short in low light.  If low light is the ultimate goal, you will likely have more size to the binocular than you may be willing to pack out hunting.

I personally am a 7-8x guy myself.  If I need more 10x won't cut it.  But that is a personal deal, even though there is bunches of research telling us less is more.  There is a reason why the military didn't standardize on 10x.  

Of the binoculars listed in the OP, my personal belief there will not be a gnat whisker's difference in their low light performance.  Selection should come down to how well the binocular fits your hands face and eyes, and what your eyes tell you you are seeing.   There is often far less difference between any combination of binoculars that one might imagine.  Come to the realization, that nothing is perfect.




Edited by Klamath - February/10/2014 at 11:10
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2014 at 13:01
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I second (or is it third or fourth) the 8X recommendation vs. 10X. I have both, and I much prefer 8X. 10X doesn't offer enough increased detail to offset the reduction in field of view and depth of field for me. If I want more magnification than an 8X binocular provides, I'm reaching for a spotting scope anyway. 8X to me provides the best balance of enough magnification for general purpose hunting yet not so much magnification that my ability to resolve detail is offset my my inability to hold the optic steady enough.

On the apparent brightness comparison, keep in mind that published specs don't tell the whole story. When comparing high end binoculars of the same magnification, objective size, and generation from the "alpha" manufacturers, I'm betting you won't notice a difference between 'em in your ability to discern detail in low light. At least I can't. There's more to it than light transmission % (which can be a misleading metric because that depends on how it's measured and at what wavelength, in addition to the fact that % alone doesn't dictate how well you can "see" in low light). In fact, I'd bet you can't tell much, if any low light advantage to the uber-expensive "alpha" binos vs. the very good upper mid-range binos in the $1K - $1200 range (Meopta Meostar, Kowa Genesis, Vortex Razor HD, Zeiss Conquest HD, etc.). All the "good stuff" is good, and if one had a decided advantage over the others across the board, the others wouldn't have a market share.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2014 at 14:04
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

8X to me provides the best balance of enough magnification for general purpose hunting yet not so much magnification that my ability to resolve detail is offset my my inability to hold the optic steady enough.
 
This becomes particularly important in twilight. In my own experience twilight seems to amplify the negative effect of shake. I simply see more and better, i perceive more, with 8x and 7x in twilight, especially if i am not in a steady position. Standing is not a steady position. Even when rock steady, one's heartbeats produce sufficient shake at 10x and above to reduce perception of details. Long range shooters and snipers learn to work around theit heartbeat (prone!!!), but when one has 2 or 4 seconds to see something in twilight, and it is moving, and the  observer is moving, and the glass has reduced depth of field and field of view (10x) and may need a bit of focusing, perception of details is poor.
 
US Army or Navy or both and several other organizations have tested what would be the best magnification. For 95% or so of people it is 7x or 8x. The large 7x50 Bausch and Lombs of the US Navy were designed after careful research. The German Leica and Zeiss of the WW2 were 10x or higher if mounted on a suppert, 7x if handheld, after similar studies. Military binoculars around the world still are 7x and 8x. People think that they see more with a 10x because it does show larger images. In theory 10x has better resolution of detail. In real life it's quite a different matter. If you were an upland hunter well endowed financially you would choose a fine 20 ga. that fits well or made to suit over a large 10ga., even if the large shotgun has more killing power.   
 
I've tested a 7x42 and a 10x42 of equal manufacture on a team of 8 people once. I covered the instrument markings with tape and asked them to select which "targets" matched a color drawing in their hand.  Observers were standing and holding binoculars with both hands. The results were 7:0 in favor of 7x42. The eight person could not do it with either glass.  Needless to say, i sold my premium 10x42 years ago and never looked back. I use 7x and 8x. Yes, if i am seated, looking over long distance, and i rest my elbows on my knees, i prefer the 10x. However, i often can't sit because it's muddy, the grass is tall,
etc.
 
The night stand hunters in Europe, where allowed, almost invariably use 7x42, 7x50, 8x50, and sometimes 9x63.


Edited by anweis - February/10/2014 at 14:10
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2014 at 17:11
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The way this thread has gone is kind of how 10X42 ... or 12X50, or whatever above 8x binocular threads kind of go on the OT.

I have been thinking about this for a while, and my opinion has changed over time, and may change again ... so keep that in mind.  this post is only applicable to the OP in that he originally asked about 10x42 bins, and the thread has diverted to convincing him to go another route.  Here is my take:

I think the "8x is better for everyone" theory is kind of bull.

It really depends on your uses.  I have several 8x binoculars, and use them a lot.  I have a 6x as well.  As you go down in magnification there is no doubt they are easier to handhold.  You also typically gain some field of view.

However,  IF YOU KEEP THE BINOCULAR STEADY, I assure you that you WILL see more detail with a 10X42 binocular than a similar quality 8X42.  I know this because I have done this many times with an Edmund Optics Resolution Chart (Great Investment BTW), and both binoculars tripod mounted.  In fact it isn't really all that close.

Add to this, I don't find a 10X42 particularly hard to hold steady for freehand glassing, and the fact that I spend by far most of my time glassing supported (sitting and/or tripod).  Having had both 8X42 and 10X42 bins in the field and using them in the similar fashion, I would take the extra resolution of the 10X42 for the way I glass every time.

As for brightness, having spent many hours glassing in the lowest of hunting light, I have found the 4.2mm exit pupil of a 10X42 binocular to be more than sufficient.  I might try a different configuration with a larger exit pupil, if I was glassing more during true nighttime conditions.

I even plan on trying 12X50s this year for the additional magnification, given I spend more and more time glassing from the tripod.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2014 at 17:46
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My Dad has the 12x50 meopta and he will sit and glass with them for hours and hours at a time.  That was after using Meopta 10x42s for a couple years.  He loves his 12x for the type of hunting he does, he would never go back.  I love my 10x42s as well. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2014 at 19:28
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Regarding 7X and 8X Binoculars:

I used to have a Leica UV in 7 X 42 but had to sell it last year, short on cash.  I really miss it (not quite as much as I miss my poor old Husky).  Great FOV and easy on the eyes.  I am primarily using the binos in the CA mountains and will have some views from 100y to about a mile. 

I may have to borrow some friends 8X while scouting.  I am also considering the 8X 32 for size/weight reduction.

Great information!

Thanks,

Ornery
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2014 at 20:28
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Originally posted by Bitterroot Bulls Bitterroot Bulls wrote:

However,  IF YOU KEEP THE BINOCULAR STEADY, I assure you that you WILL see more detail with a 10X42 binocular than a similar quality 8X42.  I know this because I have done this many times with an Edmund Optics Resolution Chart (Great Investment BTW), and both binoculars tripod mounted.  In fact it isn't really all that close.


Matt,

I'm not wanting to start an argument here, but...sorry you cannot assure me that I'll see more detail off a tripod with a 10x vs an 8x (unless you mean in close, where you pretty much have to be with a chart).  I'll see more with the 8x (say rifle range distance).  How do you suppose I know I prefer 8x?  Been there done that.   I'll concede 10 looks bigger, but often not as sharp. In my case I'm pretty sure I prefer the far superior depth of field of the 8x.  Gives better fore and aft (3-D) effect if you will.  Also there is less eye strain at the end of the day and 8x handles mirage better than 10.

Magnification is a pretty personal choice.  Its been pretty well researched that somewhere in the neighborhood of 75% of people will choose 7x or 8x over 10x.  I'm fine with the idea you are one of the few who do prefer the 10x. Big Smile

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2014 at 21:38
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Originally posted by Klamath Klamath wrote:

Originally posted by Bitterroot Bulls Bitterroot Bulls wrote:

However,  IF YOU KEEP THE BINOCULAR STEADY, I assure you that you WILL see more detail with a 10X42 binocular than a similar quality 8X42.  I know this because I have done this many times with an Edmund Optics Resolution Chart (Great Investment BTW), and both binoculars tripod mounted.  In fact it isn't really all that close.


Matt,

I'm not wanting to start an argument here, but...sorry you cannot assure me that I'll see more detail off a tripod with a 10x vs an 8x (unless you mean in close, where you pretty much have to be with a chart).  I'll see more with the 8x (say rifle range distance).  How do you suppose I know I prefer 8x?  Been there done that.   I'll concede 10 looks bigger, but often not as sharp. In my case I'm pretty sure I prefer the far superior depth of field of the 8x.  Gives better fore and aft (3-D) effect if you will.  Also there is less eye strain at the end of the day and 8x handles mirage better than 10.

Magnification is a pretty personal choice.  Its been pretty well researched that somewhere in the neighborhood of 75% of people will choose 7x or 8x over 10x.  I'm fine with the idea you are one of the few who do prefer the 10x. Big Smile


Its alright Steve, we've agreed enough we can disagree.

So here goes...

You're full of baloney.Smile

You absolutely will see more detail at rifle distances with the 10x, and you will see even more fine detail with 20x.  If you can't you should toss that spotter and just use your magic 8x bins.  Wink

Of course, my argument depends on the 10x bins being extremely sharp, which of course the OP's options are.

As far as for what people prefer, that is of course irrelevant to which is superior for any particular task.

8xs do have an advantage in DOF and FOV, but not in apparent resolution.  Can't agree to that.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2014 at 22:11
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Matt

I'm not letting that stand.  I posted a reply I just deleted because the quote aspect of the post malfunctioned and what there was looked like gibberish.  Trust me I'll re do it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2014 at 22:17
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Sounds good Steve.  I hope you caught my good-natured ribbing towards you in my post, and of course, no ill will!
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Well, since the OP asked about the 10x42 configuration, we should probably stick to that.  Personally, I am definitely in the 7x or 8x camp, but to each his own.

Between the various top end binocular makers out there, the difference largely comes down to ergonomic preferences since the overall optical quality is quite comparable.  Optics are optimized in somewhat different ways as well.  For example, as much as I like the new SLC, the Swarovision ELs are definitely not my cup of tea.

I definitely disagree with Leica falling behind as was mentioned above.  I follow the new binocular introductions rather carefully, and the biggest new development I have seen was in LRF binoculars.  With conventional binoculars, the biggest improvement has been in the volume and magnitude of the marketing efforts.

Reliable light transmission values are never really published and even if they were, they are not necessarily a good predictor of low light performance of a particular binocular (you can thank the marketing morons for convincing everyone that claimed couple of percent of light transmission make a difference).

With all that out of the way, if I were looking for a top end bino, I would be stretching a bit for an LRF equipped one.

For conventional binos, I would give the new Meopta Meostar or Leica Trinovid a look before buying something more expensive.

ILya


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Oh, something else I forgot to mention: in low light, hand tremor is indeed more noticeable than it is in good light.

As your eye pupil dilates, there are two things happening: 
1) as the eye pupil dilates to diameter similar to the diameter of the exit pupil of the binocular their relative lateral alignment becomes more critical
2) as the eye pupil dilates the effective F/# of your eye get lower, depth of the field of the eye gets correspondingly lower, and overall vision fidelity also gets lower and more critical for off-axis light.

ILya
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Originally posted by Klamath Klamath wrote:

Its been pretty well researched that somewhere in the neighborhood of 75% of people will choose 7x or 8x over 10x.


Give us some hard evidence to back up your statement.
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Back to the original question....the brightest (to my eyes only) 10x42 binos that I have personally used in the field are:
1.  Zeiss FL T
2.  Swaro SV 10x42 (like IK, I don't like this bino, rolling ball for me)
3.  Nikon EDG, Meopta HD
4.  Splitting hairs between the SLCneu, Gold Ring HD, Leica UV, Steiner Peregrine XP, Swaro EL, and Kowa Prominar XD.

I personally stay away from anything Leica due to shoddy, spotty documented CS, and the pathetic non transferable warranty.   Ridiculous for premium/alpha glass. 
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Originally posted by Bird Watcher Bird Watcher wrote:

Originally posted by Klamath Klamath wrote:

Its been pretty well researched that somewhere in the neighborhood of 75% of people will choose 7x or 8x over 10x.


Give us some hard evidence to back up your statement.


I don't want to get in the middle of a pissing match either, but out of the 100+ hunters I've had in camp the past 11 years, the vast, vast majority of them wore 10x42"s, and these guys hunt all over the world.  I personally use both 10x and 8x.
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I am now pretty certain that my intended kidding tone was lost in my above post, so let me clarify:

I am not saying everybody does or should prefer a 10x bin. They aren't for everyone, even me, for every task. I actually prefer an 8x bin for times when I glass handheld primarily. I have an 8X in my work vehicle for that very reason. I could easily make an 8x do for all of my hunting uses as well.

However, I much prefer the extra magnification for most of my hunting, because I spend so much time glassing from a stationary, stable position, and extra magnification does provide more detail when stable.

I don't really select my gear based on what the military chooses, but 10X50 binoculars have been issued to miliitary units for handheld use, and when the military chooses binoculars for long distance viewing off a stable mount, they select higher magnification binoculars also, for the extra detail they provide:

http://www.optexsys.com/product-2012/ship-binoculars

My point about some preference survey being irrelevant was that, whether it is Steve's 75% figure or JG's anecdotal evidence, it does not mean the more popular one is objectively better than the other.

The big picture is that we all have our preferences, and we should select the binocular that best suites our uses.

Edited by Bitterroot Bulls - February/11/2014 at 12:05
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Originally posted by Bitterroot Bulls Bitterroot Bulls wrote:

I am now pretty certain that my intended kidding tone was lost in my above post, so let me clarify:

I am not saying everybody does or should prefer a 10x bin. They aren't for everyone, even me, for every task. I actually prefer an 8x bin for times when I glass handheld primarily. I have an 8X in my work vehicle for that very reason. I could easily make an 8x do for all of my hunting uses as well.

However, I much prefer the extra magnification for most of my hunting, because I spend so much time glassing from a stationary, stable position, and extra magnification does provide more detail when stable.

I don't really select my gear based on what the military chooses, but 10X50 binoculars have been issued to miliitary units for handheld use, and when the military chooses binoculars for long distance viewing off a stable mount, they select higher magnification binoculars also, for the extra detail they provide:

http://www.optexsys.com/product-2012/ship-binoculars

My point about some preference survey being irrelevant was that, whether it is Steve's 75% figure or JG's anecdotal evidence, it does not mean the more popular one is better objectively better than the other.

The big picture is that we all have our preferences, and we should select the binocular that best suites our uses.

How do you think I got the reputation of not having a sense of humor?  I am just misunderstood... Boo Hoo

ILya
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

How do you think I got the reputation of not having a sense of humor?  I am just misunderstood...


Might it have something to do with your all black wardrobe? ;)
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Originally posted by Bird Watcher Bird Watcher wrote:

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

How do you think I got the reputation of not having a sense of humor?  I am just misunderstood...


Might it have something to do with your all black wardrobe? ;)

Nah...  The reputation precedes the wardrobe.

Besides, I was forced to wear the black cloak.  It was a condition for getting that other guy out of my spot...


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I won't speak to the "BEST" lowlight 10x42s however I can say that the Meopta HD 10x42 are very good in low light, like 30 minutes after sundown.

And I have yet to test ANY highend scope that does a better job in the field.


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Originally posted by Klamath Klamath wrote:


Matt,

I'm not wanting to start an argument here, but...


Originally posted by Klamath Klamath wrote:

Matt

I'm not letting that stand.


I think that you like to push people's buttons, especially when they don't agree with your thinking.

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