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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/04/2010 at 14:04
bberg7794 View Drop Down
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I have to say I have been disappointed with the low light performance of my last two scopes. I don't have an extensive amount of scope experience, but have spent at least two hunting seasons or more with the following:

3x Lyman Alaskan with post and thin crosshair
4x Weaver K4C3 with duplex reticle
2.5-8x Leupold VXIII

The Lyman Alaskan was on a borrowed '06 that I used for several hunting seasons, plus a couple hundred rounds of target shooting. I made a 240 yard shot almost straight down to get my first buck using this scope and I didn't feel that this scope was a handicap in any way, shape, or form. I really liked the flat-topped post and thin crosshair after I got used to it, having been primarily an iron sight shooter up to that point. Unfortunately that rifle eventually had to go back to it's rightful owner.

The Weaver K4 came with a Rem 660 .308 I purchased about 6 years ago. It turns out I don't like the rifle as well as I thought I would, but I blame the scope for missing an opportunity just after first light in the dense hemlocks. I couldn't clearly make out a doe I wanted to shoot. She was about 45 yards away and she didn't stick around long enough to move to a lighter location. I did eventually shoot two deer with this setup and I feel this scope would be great on a .22 for practice, but not a hunting rifle due to it being somewhat dim.

Two seasons ago, I purchased what I thought would be the ultimate for me and my $400: a Leupold VXIII 2.5-8 with the standard duplex. I didn't like the VXIII any better than the Weaver. I couldn't see the reticle in dim but legal light in the swamps I hunt in and even worse, it was not as bright as all of the magazine articles I read lead me to believe it would be. I also didn't like the variable eye relief. I sold this scope recently and am looking for it's replacement.

I was able to borrow a rifle for one season that had a 3-9 Redfield Illuminator. As I remember it, this scope was great-much brighter than my binoculars.

I would like to get a fixed power scope around 4x that is bright with a simple and relatively bold reticle. A lot of my hunting is in cedar and hemlock swamps, late in the season and in bad weather. 200 yards would be a very long opportunity with 15 to 80 being average. I want to keep it under $400 so I can spend more on a much better pair of binoculars soon. I am looking at these:

Zeiss Conquest 4x32
IOR 4x32
Used Leupold M8 3x or 4x
Used Nikon Monarch 4x40
Used Bausch and Lomb 4x

Any other suggestions?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/04/2010 at 14:40
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Welcom to the OT!

 

Zeiss Rifle Scopes

Zeiss 4x32 Conquest DEMO-B
  $349.95 

Zeiss 4x32 Conquest DEMO-B

Stock # - SPL10377
Add to Wishlist

*
MSRP: $ 615.00 5214069920, Matte finish, Z-Plex reticle, 50yrd parallax setting, 1" tube, fast focus eye piece, light ring marks, lifetime transferable warranty......DEMO-B
This scope off the samplelist is a heck of a deal.  Zeiss is good glass and shouldn't disappoint you.  Better hurry though cause there is only 1!
 


Edited by SVT_Tactical - June/04/2010 at 14:40
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/04/2010 at 15:27
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I've not used a VX-III but I had 2 Leupold VX-I's one 3x9x40mm and one 2-7x33 and I compared both of them in low light to a 3x9x32 Simmons and a 3x9x40 Simmons. In both cases I could see slightly more with the Simmons, but it wasn't a huge difference. This is horrible since the Leupold cost $230 and the Simmons cost $40. During the day I couldn't tell a difference either.

I just haven't been impressed with Leupold. Plus both of those broke and quit holding zero. One broke 2 times in 2 years of use.

The next one I tired was a Burris Fullfield II and it blew the Leupold and Simmons away in both clarity and low light situations. However, I doubt it's any better than your VX-III if it's that good.

I think the Zeiss above is probably a good choice. What's your budget? There are tons of scopes out there it just all depends on your budget.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/04/2010 at 15:29
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Actually, just saw the Zeiss above is a fixed 4 power with a 32mm objective. If it was me I'd go with something with variable power. I'd also get at least a 40mm objective and if you are really concerned with low light performance I'd even consider a 50mm objective. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/04/2010 at 16:10
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The IOR is within your price range and they have a reputation for outstanding glass. It also has the #4 Reticle
which is great in low light.

The Zeiss mentioned above would also serve you well. If you are looking for good low light performance look at
some of the 1.5-6x Variables as well. I have a Burris Euro Diamond 1.5-6X40 on my muzzleloader. It got there out of the
same frustration you are having. Inadequite optics in low light / dense woods. The #4 reticle in this scope is outstanding
in low light. It to is a bit above your price range but may be worth the extra money. I have also seen them show
up on the Sample List occasionally but they don't seem to last long. I got mine as a factory refurb for less than
your budget.

I dont see any need to go to a 50mm objective if you are staying at 6x or less. That still gives you an exit pupil of almost
7mm at 6x and 10mm at 4x which is more than most human eye's can use. Did I mention the #4 reticle is a great low light
hunting reticle.. Yeah.. I'm, pushing it but it really is that good.Big Smile


Edited by biggreen747 - June/04/2010 at 20:21
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/04/2010 at 16:40
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Vortex Viper 2-7x32
 
Long eye relief,large FOV,XR coating,and unlimited transferrable warranty with great cs.  You can always crank the mag. up if and when you need to take that 200yd shot.  And  at $260 you would have already started saving for the binos.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/04/2010 at 16:49
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 First off WELCOME to OT,bb!

 There are alot of good low light variable scopes available out there to but I'm going to stay on the fixed 4X subject you brought up.                                                                                                     
 
 I was basically in the same boat as you in wanting a modern 4X or fixed X scope.  I've got a reconditioned Weaver K4-1 w/post and crosshair reticle that is a NICE scope but of course it doesn't have the up to date lenses and coatings so isn't the best at first and last light hunting situations.
 I ended up buying a 4X Conquest a few weeks ago. Although it's mounted I haven't hunted with it yet. I've spent alot of time looking into the woods at first and last light with it though and feel it will do what I want as I,like you,hunt in some thick dark territory here in WV. The #20 reticle works fine although I would have rather had the #4. Since these scopes are discontinued the #4 was unavailable. No big deal. If you get to searching on the web you may be able to locate a 4X Conquest.  You want Zeiss #521405-9920 which has the parallax set at 100yds. The one on the sample list says it is set at 50yds and although it shouldn't be a problem when used in hunting situations it may make it less desirable if you should ever go to sell it. 
 
 Another discontinued fixed X scope to look out for would be Weaver Grand Slam 4.75x40. I've got one and like it ALOT.
 
 Those are the only ones I have experience with.  If I were looking to buy one now that is readily available it would be this IOR:
 
  Other members here have them and are satisfied. Hopefully they'll post some info for you.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/04/2010 at 18:43
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If you want a 4x scope for low light, IOR 4x32 with #4 reticle is probably your best bet unless you are willing to pay the premium for a 4x36 S&B.

ILya


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/04/2010 at 23:41
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300S&W-Thank you for the vote for the Grand Slam 4.75x40. What reticle does it have? I am assuming you like its low light performance and I would be interested to hear how it stacks up with the Conquest: if the image size, field of view or reticle bounce are noticeably different between the two, etc.

After living with the 2.5-8 for the past two years I have really come to appreciate simplicity. I spend a lot of time still hunting or tracking and often have only a second or two to make the shot, so I want a simple reticle and would prefer no power adjustments to think about. I really liked the flat post and thin crosswire on the Lyman Alaskan and am sure I would like the no. 4 reticle or post and duplex-unfortunately not available on the 4x Conquest. My 2.5-8 spent all of it's first season at 2.5x and I got my deer with it at that setting. Last season I hunted 13 full days and experimented a bit by taping the power lever at different settings for an entire day. 2.5x was fine, 3x to 4x seemed perfect, 5x to 6x was too much. I didn't use over 6x because eye relief became an issue and I liked 6x from the bench but that was it. 4x seemed to help in low light a bit and it definitely helps you thread a bullet through the branches, which I appreciate. Anything over 4x and the reticle bounce becomes distracting from the offhand or kneeling shooting positions, which I use alot. I shot my buck last year at 13 yards on a day the scope was taped at 4x.

If money were no object, I would choose the S&B 4x36 or possibly consider one of the euro 1.5-6x42's or a Trijicon TR24. This year I don't even want to stretch up to the price of a Burris Euro Diamond. I am willing to wait a bit for something used to come along and want to get the best quality for $400 possible, with low light performance being my emphasis. I am also hoping that $400 will buy more quality in a fixed power that it would in a variable. Anyone like the Nikon Monarch UCC 4x40? Didn't Kahles make a 4x?

Thank you for the comments so far.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/05/2010 at 03:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/05/2010 at 06:18
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 Hey bb,
 My Weaver GS has the std duplex reticle (only option).  Being close to 5X it does not have the wide fov that the 4X Conquest has.  That combined with a shorter eye relief makes it not as quick for target aquisition as the Conquest. As far as low light performance goes the Conquest is better BUT I did take a doe last yr with the GS when all I could tell was that the movement I saw was a deer.  The GS made the shot possible. One thing is that the GS gives the image a whiteish tint but I've not found it to be a problem. If you could find one I think you would be satisfied. I talk sometimes with a hunter from Germany who bought a few of them before they were all gone. He hunts boar at the first and last possible light. He says they work GOOD for him. BUT if I had a choice it would be the Conquest although I'll not get rid of my GS.
  All that being said I trust the guys here who have the IOR and say,as BigGreen does, that their performance is top notch for what your wanting (I HOPE they check in). I got the Conquest over the IOR because of a price I couldn't pass up.  Koshkin's career is optics. Not just sports optics but optics of all sorts. His opinions are HIGHLY respected not just here but on other well known forums.  And as he says,unless your willing to pay the price of a S&B your best bet is the IOR.  That says ALOT as there are quite a few scopes in between the IOR and S&B. And quite a price jump!!
  
 


Edited by 300S&W - June/05/2010 at 06:24
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/05/2010 at 09:26
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i dont think you would regret buying the ior.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/05/2010 at 10:32
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BBERG7794, I found a Weaver Grand Slam 4.75 x 40 a couple of weeks ago and bought it to compare to some of my other scopes. I havent decided If Im going to mount it for keeps or sell it yet. I do like it however. It has a standard duplex that looks just like a Bushnell Elite Plex or a Nikon Monarch Plex but the very center crosshairs are a tad thicker on the Weaver which I like better in dim light. Also, optically It is pretty much equal to the other two to my eye. The nice thing about this scope is that it is fairly short and really light in weight. It is a 4.75 power and not a 4 power but to be honest I cant see very much difference between it and my variables set at 4x , it is comfortable for close shots and yet just enough extra mag for those longer shots. I ll probably keep this one because as you say there arent many high quality fixed power offerings out there that are decent priced and light weight like this is. If I decide to sell it Ill let you know first thing If you want. As far as I know its never been mounted and the optics are in excellent shape.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2010 at 10:44
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Thank you for the info everyone. DAVE44 it is an interesting comment about the inner crosshair thickness of the GS vs. the Elite and Monarch.

I have done quite a bit of searching and reading on this website and others now regarding fixed power scopes and low light performance. It sounds like people who own IOR 4x32's are happy with them as are those with who have Conquest 4x32's. There are people who mentioned liking both the 4a reticle on the IOR and Rapid-Z on the Zeiss for low light performance. It looks like not enough of us are interested in purchasing 4x scopes for the manufacturers to continue offering them-we are a small but enthusiastic minority. The 6x scopes seem to be faring a little better. I did see a S&B 4x36 sell for $500 used on another website, which sounds like an exceptional deal. It also looks like Leupold M8 3x's have a following and go for nearly $200.

I will probably end up purchasing the Zeiss because it's overall length is longer than the IOR and this would fit my rifle a little better, though I believe I would prefer the 4a reticle of the IOR. I am going to try to find a place where I can go to physically look through both of them. The Leupold 2.5-8 at 11.3" long had only about 1/8" of fore and aft adjustment in my rings and I would prefer not to install the extension mount. At 6x and above I had to crawl up the stock noticeably to see the full field of view.

300S&W-I would like to hear how you are getting along with the Conquest after you have had some time with it.

I would be happy to hear any other thoughts people may have on this topic.    
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2010 at 11:03
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pyro6999-Do you have first hand experience with the IOR?

ILya-A was able to read a lot of information you posted on this and related topics. Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge. On one of your websites, you were questioning reviewing a $400 price point on scopes. I guess I came to this price point because it is what the Leupold VXIII sold for and this was the scope of choice for many gun writers. It is also the scope shown on many pictures of custom rifles in the magazines, with that beautiful gold ring and all. If I had not moved east 15 years ago I likely would have been happy with the 2.5-8 as when I lived in the west, I was primarily a mule deer hunter and the low light performance of that Lyman Alaskan was just fine.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2010 at 14:23
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Yes, I want to try the Zeiss and IOR 4x myself. The IOR has a steel tube though not aluminum and it looks like the inner plex on them is very wide which I dont know if it would work well in Low light. Also, there is the customer service question...I think Zeiss would be a better choice in that I have had a couple of Conquests with Z plex and I hear their customer service is excellent. The only dislike I have with the Z plex is that the inner center plex lines are very thin like target crosshairs and I like them a tad thicker. The outer lines are about right and could be a hair thicker also for me. I am currently thinking on buying an IOR I found for around $260.00 new and unused. If I new I could sell it for that in case I dont like it I would buy in right now.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2010 at 14:49
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Hopefully someone who has hunted with the IOR 4x in low light will comment on how they like the 4a reticle.
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 Hey bb and Dave,

 Y'all do know that the 4X Conquest is discontinued,right?  Honestly don't know if you'll find one or not. I checked where I got mine and no dice.

 Dave I don't feel you'd have any problem selling that IOR at $260. 

 Thick reticles. I had a VXIII 1.75-6x32 w/the Heavy Duplex. FOR ME,it along with the scope size and weight were the only thing I liked about that scope. That reticle (and a #4) TO ME is the best thing short of an illuminated one for low light and dense woods/brush shooting conditions.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2010 at 15:26
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Yep, the Conquest 4x is discontinued but there are still a few available and it is still listed on their website(?). The 4x32 looks like its built on the same "chassis" as the 2.5-8x32, so it should be possible to have one fixed as long as they carry the 2.5-8. Am I wrong?

DAVE44-Thanks for the comments on the inner plex lines of the Conquest.

300S&W-I looked at the VXIII 1.75-6 before I bought the 2.5-8. Its magnification would have been a better choice for my hunting, especially with a bold reticle, but it sounds like you weren't happy with the brightness of the 1.75-6 either.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2010 at 15:54
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  I've read that Zeiss has 4X's saved back for warrenty coverage. If you can locate one,GOOD!  They were available with the #4 reticle if your interested and can find one. Also DON'T forget the Zeiss part # 521405-9920 for the 100yd parallax set model.
  The low light performance of my VXIII wasn't a problem at all ESPECIALLY with the hvy plex.  The two main reasons I got rid of it was it's huge variation in eye relief from low to high (hi was REAL short) and the image distortion at the outer edge was too much at low X. Fisheye image. I've been around a lot of Leupolds and I wasn''t impressed with this one at all.  In fact I've got an 87' model Vari-XIII 3.5-10x40AO I'll never let go of (ALMOST did once!).
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2010 at 16:46
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If I could find a Zeiss 4x with the no. 4 reticle that would be everything I could want. I will have to give customer service a call in a couple of weeks when I have the money.

I found the variable eye relief of my 2.5-8 to be really annoying also, but I was most disappointed in it's lack of light gathering and the standard deuplex reticle was not good for low light. I didn't notice any image distortion with mine.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2010 at 17:09
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  I also should have listed the low light performance of my VX-III as one of the things I liked about the scope.  Edge distortion was bad.
 
  I'll just say that the view through my Conquest is WIDE,CLEAR,and BRIGHT.  Don't let the lack of a #4 reticle stop you from getting one if you can as I believe the #20 will be fine.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2010 at 21:19
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SWFA SS 6x42 Tactical Riflescope SWFA SS 6x42 Tactical Riflescope
Stock # - SS6X42
  • Matte
  • Mil-Dot
  • 30mm
  • Rear Focus
  • OK for .50 cal
  • 1/4 MOA
$299.95 
Currently available in stock ready to be ordered. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/08/2010 at 12:08
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I had a GS 4.75x40, and quickly sent it down the road.  I didn't like the reticle, eye relief, or the picture.  I'd gotten it on close-out, so 'twas easy to get my $ back out of it.

I currently have  2 Conquest 4x32's mounted on rifles, 1 in the safe, & another being delivered as we speak.  I suppose you could say I'm partial to them.  I happen to like the #20 reticle, but those things are really just a personal preference.

Still, if I had an opportunity to pick up an IOR 4x for $260, I'd be on it like Michael Jackson on a Cub Scout.

FC
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/08/2010 at 12:38
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Originally posted by Folically Challenged Folically Challenged wrote:

I had a GS 4.75x40, and quickly sent it down the road.  I didn't like the reticle, eye relief, or the picture.  I'd gotten it on close-out, so 'twas easy to get my $ back out of it.

I currently have  2 Conquest 4x32's mounted on rifles, 1 in the safe, & another being delivered as we speak.  I suppose you could say I'm partial to them.  I happen to like the #20 reticle, but those things are really just a personal preference.

Still, if I had an opportunity to pick up an IOR 4x for $260, I'd be on it like Michael Jackson on a Cub Scout.

FC
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