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Barrel Visible in Scope-HELP!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2005 at 17:34
doctormdds View Drop Down
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I received a new Elite 4200 2.5x10x40 scope for Christmas.  I replaced a Nikon on my rifle with this scope.  Now, I see the front of the barrel unless the magnification is turned way up.  I moved the scope forward in the rings as far as practicle but I still see the front of the barrel.  There is plenty of clearance between the objective and the barrel so I hate to go to taller rings.  Should anyone have any other ideas, I would appreciate your help.  Thanks in advance.

Edited by doctormdds
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2005 at 17:53
Boomholzer View Drop Down
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Something is very wrong.

Consider the following:
One should be able to mount that same optic on a M4 type rifle and not see the front sight in the optical picture, much less the muzzle! Regardless of the sight axis height.


Edited by Boomholzer
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2005 at 18:35
doctormdds View Drop Down
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Boomholzer,

 

Obviously, I can't see the "muzzle" through the scope.  I edited my post to say "front of the barrel" in the one place it previously stated "muzzle". 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2005 at 18:57
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Originally posted by doctormdds doctormdds wrote:

Boomholzer,

 

Obviously, I can't see the "muzzle" through the scope.  I edited my post to say "front of the barrel" in the one place it previously stated "muzzle". 


?
What end of the barrel do you refer as the front? 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2005 at 19:04
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The end where the bullet exits after pulling the trigger!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2005 at 19:16
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Originally posted by doctormdds doctormdds wrote:

The end where the bullet exits after pulling the trigger!


That's the muzzle.

You should be able to stick part of your finger in front of the objective and not see it.

My only answer is that the scope is defective.  How clear is the image you think is the muzzle?  Any obstruction that close should be extremely blurry.


Edited by Boomholzer
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2005 at 19:19
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The image is very blurry.  It gradually disappears when viewed as the magnification is turned up.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/02/2005 at 12:16
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If the blurred image goes away when you remove the scope from the rifle and the scope mounts are correct enough to bore-sight the rifle, I don't know what else it could be.
Its not your scope axis height.

Maybe someone else can offer a better response.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/03/2005 at 12:58
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There's nothing wrong with your scope.  It's not unusual to see the front sight on lower power settings.  I prefer to mount the scope as low as possible and have the same situation on a couple of my set-ups.  Unless you find it really annoying, I wouldn't do anything.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/05/2005 at 19:52
doctormdds View Drop Down
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I find this situation REALLY annoying, so much so that I will put my Nikon back on the rifle if I can't mount the Elite 4200 without seeing the front sight in the bottom of the sight picture at the lower power settings.  I have yet to bore sight the scope/rifle but that's what Bushnell's tech help told me to do first.  I assumed that since I took off a perfectly functioning scope and left the 2 piece bases and the lower half of the rings in place that this would be an easy job.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/05/2005 at 20:15
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That would also annoy me to the same point that you describe.

I have never experienced that problem with any rifle/optic combo. Even with rifles that have a tall hooded front sight.

I agree that I would verify that the scope mount is aligned as such to allow the scope to be zero'ed without taking any scope adjustment to the extreme.

Can I ask what kind of rifle you are mounting the scope on? 


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/05/2005 at 20:29
doctormdds View Drop Down
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Sure, this is a Winchester M70 with an original Boss device on the muzzle. This makes the barrel a little longer than "normal" but as stated above, I had NO problem with my Nikon 3x9x40.  By the way, the Nikon is a pre-Monarch scope, before Nikon marketed different lines of scopes.  If I can't get this resoved, the Nikon WILL be re-installed on the rifle.  By the way Boomholzer, I appreciate your attempt to help me.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/05/2005 at 20:44
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doctormdds,

Yes it is an attempt, and probably a poor one at that.  Like I said, I never experienced the problem and mounted enough scopes to have the mindset that it is unusual. I am just as curious as you in why the hell a problem exsists.  Although, I don't have any rigs with a tube longer than 26".

That comp/brake isn't to obtrusive. No more than a bull or heavy target barrel profile.

If you have'nt done this already, you can remove the bolt and put the rifle on a stable bag or rest.  Sight a target at 25yards through the bore and then peak up into the scope without disturbing the rifles position. The "cheap and dirty" method of bore-sighting.


Edited by Boomholzer
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/05/2005 at 21:38
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That's the way I always bore-sight my bolt action rifles but it will be at least this weekend before I have a chance to do this.  I have mounted many scopes for myself and for others and I too have never had this problem before.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/05/2005 at 21:55
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Yea, I figured you had the scoop, just thought I would throw that in since I don't have anything else to offer.
Let me know what you find out and good luck.
I'll shoot a email out or call a buddy who mounts scopes dailey at Bass Pro Shops, maybe he has some insite. We frequently have chats on interesting things that have happened, this situation has never come up.  Well dressed men who want the best, most expensive, highest power scope put on a just purchased 45-70 is a more frequent topic.


Edited by Boomholzer
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2005 at 08:36
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It is not unusual, nor does it indicate any problem, to see the end of the barrel or the front sight when using a low power scope with good field of view.  I have a couple of scopes that go down to 1.5 and 1.75 and can see the end of the barrel at these powers, and one is an 18.5" barrel.  I can no longer see the barrel when power goes above about 2.5.  The part of the barrel seen is very blurry, of course, because it is far out of the focal range.  If you see the barrel at 2.5 but it's gone by 3X, I doubt you have any problem.  If it's still visible, then you have a mounting or scope problem.

 

 

 

 

Real men shoot 45-70's.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2005 at 10:31
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I think much has to do with the increased view of the scope along with your barrel length. It should disappear after 3 power but you say you have to turn it way up to get rid of it. If not, I'd try rotating the scope within the rings. If it lessens or disappears altogether then you know you have a slight lens tilt somewhere in that scope
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2005 at 19:32
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I finally had a chance to "experiment" with my scope mounting.  I put the rifle in a cradle and completely removed the top half of the rings.  I slowly turned the scope around while it rested in the bottom half of the rings to see if the image of the muzzle end of the barrel disappeared.  It did not.  Then, I moved the scope as far forward and as far backward as the rings would allow.  The barrel was still visible in the scope.  A friend of mine has a pair of Brownell's Scope Alignment Rods.  I beleive I used these when I first mounted my Nikon several years ago so everything should be in alignment but I will borrow the rods this weekend and check the rotation and height of the rings within the bases.  This is my last resort.   After this, I feel I will have exhausted every option that I have.  The image of the barrel is out of the sight picture once the scope is set to 4x or better.  I'm certainly frustrated with this problem.  While using high rings might help, I prefer not to use them as my scope has plenty of clearance from the barrel with the present rings.  I'm not even sure if high rings would completely get rid of the problem as I have to tilt the front of the scope about 1/4 inch off the front ring in order to get the barrel out of the sight picture.  If all else fails, I will put my Nikon back on.  Realistically, it has served me well and I don't see the barrel when it's set at 3x.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2005 at 19:53
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Would the length of the tube of your Bushnell Elite 4200 have something to do with the problem you are having? I know that the Bushnell Elite tubes are longer than most scopes and you did not have this problem with the Nikon. Maybe this will help a little. Brian
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2005 at 20:33
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  here's an idea which may or may not be feasible.....

 

  any way to get ahold of another 4200 and see it that one has the same "problem" ??

 

  Everything about yours could be perfect except for "something" odd..... maybe yours has some wide-angle kink to it, an individual lens that isn't "just quite right."  Or the wrong lens entirely for the 4200 optic system.  Or something....

 

  just an idea.

 

Cheers,

 

Carl

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2005 at 22:23
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Over the weekend I had a chance to remove the scope from the rings and check my ring and base alignment with Brownell's Scope Alignment Rods.  If you're not familiar with these, there are two metal sleeves or collars.  One is placed in the bottom half of each ring and then the top half of the ring is secured.  Once the sleeves are secured, you slip a metal rod in each one.  Each metal rod is pointed towards the center-towards each other.  If the bases and rings are in good alignment, the points of the rods will face exactly at one another.  Placement of the rods confirmed to me that my rings and bases are properly installed.  Therefore, I'm at a complete loss as to why the barrel is visible in the bottom of the sight picture at any power less than 4x.  I'll call Bushnell again and keep everyone informed as to what happens.  I do appreciate the help everyone has given me.  Unfortunately, I do not have access to another identical scope or I'd mount it to see if I had a scope problem.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2005 at 19:08
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I spoke to Bushnell again today.  The person I spoke with told me she spoke with an engineer since last time I called.  He supposedly told her that with some rifles, the appearance of the end of the barrel in the sight picture at lower powers is inevitable and there is nothing that can be done about it.  I will put my Nikon back on my rifle as I can't live with this problem.  I'm not sure what I'll do with my Elite 4200.  I may put it on another rifle or I may put it up for sale on eBay.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2005 at 22:41
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doctormdds,

Sounds like your at the end of the road. Crap!

I have sets of the alignment rods you speak of. I wanted to give my .02 that this tool has no bearing on the base to rcvr mount for 1-piece bases.  One can take any 1-pc scope mount, separate from the weapon and lap the rings (for example not in practice).  Once mounted, the aligned ring-axis to the barrel centerline is another story.

In your text I caught the "bases" as in a 2-pc. Once mounted to the weapon, the same theory applies. The rings can be inspected to a 3D alignment to each other but, the method has no guarentee to the alignment to the barrel. I'm just being anal.

Not that I still think you have a mounting problem, or even a scope problem.  I'll eat my words on that. Again, I am sorry this did'nt have a happy ending.
I questioned the buddy I have who mentioned in a earlier post. He said he did have that happen personally a few times. He thought all were on shotguns with long tubes and low power optics.



Edited by Boomholzer
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/13/2005 at 04:55
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You don't have a problem!  It's not uncommon for that on longer barreled rifles.  When that big buck jumps out in front of you at 75 yards and stands there broadside, are you going to say, "Damn, I can shoot the buck because I can catch a little of my barrel in the scope"?  Most of the time, you are going to have time to turn up the magnification before you pull the trigger anyway.  Don't lose any sleep over it, you have a very nice scope!


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/13/2005 at 10:14
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FWIW, I checked some of my scoped rifles to see what was what.  The results:

 

Nikon 1.5x4.5 (Weaver bases/Leupold QRW rings) on Savage 99 - Could see end of barrel & front sight at 1.5 & 2

Weaver Grand Slam 1.5x5 (Weaver bases/Leupold QRW ring) on Marlin 1895M - Same up to 2x

Burris 1.75x5 (Weaver bases/Leupold QRW rings) on same Marlin 1895M - Same up to 2x

2 different Leupold 1.75x6 (Ruger integral bases/Warne QD rings) on Ruger 77 - Same up to 2x

 

I was unable to see the sight or end of barrel on any of these set-ups once I got to 3x.  Barrel length didn't matter.  Everyone of these shoots just fine and I've always known the situation existed.  I'm just able to ignore it. 

 

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