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Ballistics talk anyone?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/17/2004 at 18:59
Knewt View Drop Down
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I'm getting ready to reload 80 rnds of .308 norma.... I'm going to use 180 gr. Barnes triple shocks on top of VihtaVuori n160 ..... norma brass of course...

So I'm wondering if anyone HERE has experience with Barnes triple shocks and/or any experience with Ms. Moly coated barrels and bullets?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/17/2004 at 19:30
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for hunting, or target. for hunting, i think they would be a great bullet, but i think i would maybe try 133, or retumbo, and for target bullets, i dont think its gets better than sierra match kings.

cory

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/17/2004 at 20:01
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This is for huting of course..... I'm reluctant to use Retumbo because I've heard its best suited to bullets over 200 grs. and I'm afraid I'd just be shooting a big flame jet out of this 22 inch barrel with a slower powder.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/17/2004 at 20:09
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ohh, yeah, with a 22 inch barrel a little faster burner would be good. maybe 4831, 4350 might work. but VV is more consistant. a buddy of mine only found a +/- .3fps change in velocity, never seen that done with hodgdon.

cory

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/17/2004 at 22:04
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Generally moly coating on the bullets or the barrel usually result in easier cleaning of the barrel. Similar to chrome lining. It is difficult to tell from the reports if the velocity increases are from a moly bullet (being slicker) in a new barrel, an old slick barrel with plain bullets same velocities as moly or if a properly lapped barrel compares. After using several coatings of MoS2, tetrahydrofuran, ccl4, and ether to coat the inside of my target barrels, the number of passes with a bronze brush rapped with a cloth, significantly decreases. Enough to go to the bother of all this?  yes. (Incidently this is not a new idea, the Navy used to do this on their large ship guns to reduce wear, at least as far back as WWII as much as I could find out).
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/17/2004 at 23:33
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Dale Clifford, you are my favorite "Evil Genius".

ranburr

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/18/2004 at 01:29
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Dale, (Thanks!)

1903 springfield/ 308 norma

OK... so here's the plan..... use the proprietary ms. moly coating on my barrel (22") & on the barnes TS bullets. I'm trying to work up an accurate load that will crony at about 2950-3000 without serious whip first & second shot, hot or cold weather ... I'm hoping for about a 1.0-.75 moa (off a good rest and bag)...

The rifle shot match quality (.3 moa) before i had it rechambered in 1986 from 30-06 to 308 norma...
now its shooting 180 gr nos-parts @ about 2870 (or so), but into about 1.5 moa ...   
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/18/2004 at 18:38
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here's the link:


http://www.msmoly.com
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2004 at 00:23
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Knewt, before I went through the added steps to moly coat the Barnes TS bullets, I would speak with someone at Barnes. If my memory serves me correctly, the concept behind the groves in the TS bullets was to reduce drag and improve the gas seal between the bullet and rifle bore. Top custom barrel  barrel makers do not encourage the use of moly for a various reasons, the chief complaint being the removal of moly from the barrel during cleaning. Also, check the recommended distance from the throat of your rifle barrel that Barnes recommends when using the T bullets. It used to be .050 off the lands for the X bullets which in my experience does not produce the best accuracy.

On a different note, I don't know what the redneckbmxer was thinking when he suggested 133 for a 308 Norma Mag. Perhaps he was thinking of a different round. The N160 would be a good choice as would the IMR-4350 and IMR-4831. You can get slightly higher, and I mean slightly, with slightly slower powders, but, these powders have performed great for me in the past. Good luck.

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2004 at 08:48
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Solids or exclusive copper jackets are not compounded (metalurgically) with zinc or gilding (or is it gliding) metals to reduce friction in the bore. The use of moly is an advantage. My general feeling after shooting a large amount of straight copper jackets is that they are not as accurate as compounds and not close to match bullets. (sierra). After market barrel makers Hart, etc. can and do usually lap their barrels wringing out the last bit of velocity vs. accuracy and moly seems to be of no use (in my experience). Where is really helps is in cheaper barrels and as said earlier helps in the cleaning, (because it is coming out with the residue and probably due more to the unbound electrons in the sulfur). Land set off is due to the higher pressures encountered with harder jackets. Regardless of the combination of components you are missing a large part of accuracy correction  ----  if you are not neck turning the cases.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2004 at 15:00
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i was thinking that with a 22" barrel, 133 would work fine, but im thinkin bakc, and it might be a little too fast burning 160 should be right about perfect. perhaps N150 since it is after all a 22" barrel. just my thinking, i have always compensated for shorter barrels with a faster burining powder.

cory

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/23/2004 at 01:12
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Knewt, the gun was shooting .3 moa and you had it rechambered from 30/06 to 308 Norma Mag? I'm not trying to make you feel worse than you probably already feel, and I pretty sure Dale C. would back me on this one, but you should have left that one alone. With regards to Dale's suggestion as to neck turning, in my opinion, that would or could help shrink groups depending on the quality of the rechambering job. On an uplifting note, your on the right track with Norma brass. Don't try to push the Norma brass to hard ( hot ) because while it is probably the best brass out there, next to Lapua, it tends to run on the soft side. Good luck.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/23/2004 at 10:39
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roy...

yep it was a DUMB decission.... but the local "gun smith" (in my home town of Deadwood,S.D.)thought that if i took that action and barrel, and rechambered it with what at that time was concidered the most accurate "short" .30 mag that i'd really have someting. he sent the rifle away to a another gun smith in wisconsin and 5 months later I had my 308 norma.... he worked up a load with 69.5 of 4350 under a 180gr nos part and it shot ok, but man did it bruise me up.

right now i'm in the process of loading up some fireforming loads for the new brass.... then they will have their necks miked and turned and then the brass will be sorted by weight...
seems like alot of trouble but i remember how well it shot before i got my "great idea" and i'm going to try to get back some of its former accuracy.... (back when it was an -06 the best i ever shot with it was about .6 moa for 3 and 1 moa for 5.... tho i'd seen my step dad shoot it into .3 moa (for 3) more than a couple times)

on the up side.... it does seem to kill better than it did as an -06... tho that may have been the change of bullet from sierra to nosler, and i'm sure the extra 350 fps added more down range wallop... it sure did on my end...

what im curious about is if anyone here has actually killed game with the barnes triple shocks?
and if anyone has actually used ms moly?

i'm sure i'll never shoot this rifle into anywhere near what it was capable of in the past, but it is a mountain rifle now and it is a good "terminal performer"...

like they say "youth is wasted on the young and wisdom is it conciquence"

thanks everyone for your imput.... i'll let you know how it turns out... (i do have a 3rd season cow tag.... wink)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/23/2004 at 11:55
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also on the up side....

before it was a 308 it had had a pretty extensive overhaul ....

bolt lever was removed and repaced and repositioned
bolt was polished and trued
action was polished and deburred inside
magazine cut off was disabled and the feed plate was ramped and polished
custom "nra approved" (not sure what that means) aftermarket trigger... 30 oz.
chamber was "squared to the bore"

i.e. typical small town "gun smith" accurizing job

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/23/2004 at 13:52
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What "they" actually say is...

"Youth is wasted on the young, and SOMETIMES wisdom is it's conciquence"

sorry.........
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/26/2004 at 12:49
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Knewt, interesting thread.  My uncle has an '03-A3 that's been converted to .308 Norma.  He shoots all the time, and I've never heard him say anything about recoil, but I've never known him to shoot that rifle.  Last time I was there I asked him about it.  He said it shot pretty good, and then got a little smile in his eyes and said, "But it'll shake you up a little bit."  I'd gather the recoil must be pretty stout.  It's neat to hear of someone else with a similar rifle.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/26/2004 at 18:42
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Red,

Mine really does have a bite... part of that is due to the fact that the stock has been "corked" and pared down to about the minimum.... at the butt its less than 4-7/8" from heel to toe and less than 1-1/2" wide at its widest.... and it has an old dried up pachmeyr magnum recoil pad that is about as hard as the underlying walnut. About 3 months ago I helped a friend put a limb saver on a 30-378 tactical rifle and was really impressed by the difference it made.... I was going to put one on this norma untill someone said check out the new x-coil pad. Well I did and ended up ordering one just a few days ago for it.

Actually off-hand it isn't too bad, but when I'm working up a new load I ALWAYS use lead shot filled bunny ears and a sissy bag. From what I have heard, I may not need the sissy bag with the new recoil pad.... but I'll probably keep using it. The bruising isn't so much the problem, but I have rhumitoid arthritis in that shoulder from too many years of muzzel loader siloette, and I'm already taking celibrex for my back.... so anything to keep the "after-pain" down you can bet I'll do. Probably in a few years I'll even go the muzzel brake route as well...

It's such a nice rifle, and has such an interesting history that its always the first non smoke-pole rifle that I grab for if I'm after anything bigger than a coyote. I have other "way newer" rifles but they just don't have the same class as this "old Norma girl".

I'm always reminded of what Elmer Kieth professed : "Find one good rifle that shoots well, and learn to shoot it as well as it'll shoot".
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/29/2004 at 13:28
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Well...

The ms moly kit showed up a few days ago and i have read and re-read the instruction booklet.

Damn, if it does everything they say it will do i may just have to buy a couple more kits and spray paint my pickup with it...

I wonder what kind increased velocity I can expect to get on a chevy C15??? Also it sounds like bug splats and road grime "fouling" will be almost non existant so I otta be able to wash it with a dry napkin....

Just kidding of course.... I'll be finding out shortly if its worth all the trouble.   
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