New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Ballistic tip problem
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Check GunBroker.com for SWFA's No Reserve and No Minimum bid firearm auctions.

Ballistic tip problem

 Post Reply Post Reply   Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/03/2008 at 08:44
trigger29 View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar
X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ?

Joined: September/29/2007
Location: South Dakota
Status: Offline
Points: 4292
I have been shooting a Weatherby Vanguard in .270 WSM (sorry pyro) for the last couple months. With 150gr. Winchester powerpoints it groups about 1/2" @ 100. I planned to try some Winchester ballistic silvertips for deer this year for the higher ballistic coeffiecient, but groups went to about 4-5" with 130gr. I tried a box of them in 150gr. with the same results. Could this be the black oxide coating that Winchester uses on the bullet, or more the gun just not liking the ballistic tips? I also noticed a couple of these rounds wouldn't chamber in my gun. Iwould push them up into the chamber and couldn't close the bolt completely. I took the gun home and cleaned it completly spotless and tried again with the same results. The rounds not chambering really bothers me, but I don't know why it would happen. What steps would you guys take to find this problem and correct it. Thank you.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/03/2008 at 09:01
8shots View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight
Avatar
Lord Of The Flies

Joined: March/14/2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 5751
Just a guess, but maybe the OCL (overall cartridge length) is too long on the Silvertips. It maybe that due to a different ogive (fat part of bullet) the bullet cannot go forward enough when chambering the round. It is therefore tight against the lands, which is not good for most rifles, as a slight jump is required. Hand loaders can adjust the OCL themselves to suit their own rifle's particular likes and dislikes, thereby improving accuracy.
By asking a handloader to move the bullet in a fraction and testing it for the bolt closing you may find this is the problem if the bolt closes easily on a shorter bullet.. DO NOT FIRE THIS ROUND AS UNKNOWN PRESSURE CAN CAUSE DAMAGE OR INJURY.  A safer way may be to blacken the bullet with a koki pen or soot and chamber it. The area where the bullet jams onto the lands may show up.
If this is the problem with these bullets it will also explain your loss in accuracy.


Edited by 8shots - January/03/2008 at 09:04
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/03/2008 at 11:02
pyro6999 View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar
OT TITAN

Joined: December/22/2006
Location: North Dakota
Status: Offline
Points: 22024
i will tell you i had similar results with both my 300wsm and my 25wssm that the plain jane super x power points would out shoot the ballistic tips all day long and i wondered why, and was some what pissed because the bts cost a lot more than the super x's did. now about your rifle sounds to me like you may have a short throat, not a real big deal, you can send it to wby and they will fix it, or you can start handloading and fix the problem with shorter case and deeper bullet seating and save a lot of money. higher b.c doesnt always mean better groups it does mean flatter shooting especially at longer distnaces, but with the 270wsm, you are already shooting a very flat line as it is. i would try some different bullets other than the bt's the accubond is very similar but the bullet of course is a little bit better built but the bc and sd are very close. keep trying different makers bullets, i would try some federals if they make them for the 270wsm.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/03/2008 at 15:10
trigger29 View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar
X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ?

Joined: September/29/2007
Location: South Dakota
Status: Offline
Points: 4292
Correct me if I'm wrong, but a short throat could be a good thing. With throat erosion happening all the time, I just got more meat there to erode. I understand what pyro was saying about ballistic coefficient. I was going to shoot them because the shots out here in the west can be long, and in South Dakota the wind just never quits. Maybe I will sucker someone into hand loading me some Nosler ballistic tips or accubonds for me. Would help if I knew how to measure how far it is to the lands in my gun. And where should I start for spacing the bullet off the lands?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/03/2008 at 15:11
pyro6999 View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar
OT TITAN

Joined: December/22/2006
Location: North Dakota
Status: Offline
Points: 22024

https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_session=72c4e562614aa1e056e553462f81088f&page=shop%2Fbrowse&category_id=fd215786476a600bb3a34eaef6e83165

that will do what you need just gotta buy the .270wsm shell for it


Edited by pyro6999 - January/03/2008 at 15:22
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/03/2008 at 15:45
Focus View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar
Conquistador!!

Joined: June/05/2007
Location: Maine
Status: Offline
Points: 1006
If you have a dial caliper measure one that will chamber vs one that won't see if they measure a different length. Factory ammo is usually pretty short so it would take a pretty short throat to effect most factory ammo within saami specs. Spec's are 2.860 for that round, see if they measure longer than that. See if one that don't want to chamber will have any marks on the bullet about 1/3 way down from the rifling. Other than that it could be brass not the right size.

Focus
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/03/2008 at 16:05
pyro6999 View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar
OT TITAN

Joined: December/22/2006
Location: North Dakota
Status: Offline
Points: 22024
the brass should fit its factory ammo
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/03/2008 at 16:38
Focus View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar
Conquistador!!

Joined: June/05/2007
Location: Maine
Status: Offline
Points: 1006
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

the brass should fit its factory ammo



Yeah agreed but its always a possibility that it was produced off size or that something went amiss in the loading process. Winchester has farmed out a good bit if not all their ammo production to other companies. I bought a couple of the white box ammo for my 22-250 a couple years ago, first box shot fine and was shooting 1/2" groups (great for any factory ammo!) next box had two in a row lock the bolt up from pressure and the primers were bleeding and the third blew the primer and shot out the vent port on my action. Called winchester and they referred me to some other company that had actually loaded it for them. They offered me another box.......

Focus
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/03/2008 at 16:40
pyro6999 View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar
OT TITAN

Joined: December/22/2006
Location: North Dakota
Status: Offline
Points: 22024
usually if the ammo doesnt fit its the gun factory ammo has specs they must meet for oal, not to say you are wrong anything is possible, but i think he has a short throat
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/03/2008 at 17:10
Focus View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar
Conquistador!!

Joined: June/05/2007
Location: Maine
Status: Offline
Points: 1006
Yeah if its truly saami spec or under......I gave the saami OAL so if he can throw one on a dial caliper he will know if the ammo is within spec. I once saw a situation where the recoil was causing bullets to pull out of the case slightly to the point where they wouldn't chamber. Anything is possible I guess...

If trigger lived close to me it would take about 10 minutes to see how long a throat his chamber has and we could measure his cartridges as well. After doing OAL for reloads and moving bullets in and out so much its all pretty easy to measure and figure out.

Focus

Edited by Focus - January/03/2008 at 17:12
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/03/2008 at 19:04
RONK View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: April/05/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3199
 
 8 shots' idea of blackening the cartridge with soot will tell you immediatly where to make corrections.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/03/2008 at 19:30
Focus View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar
Conquistador!!

Joined: June/05/2007
Location: Maine
Status: Offline
Points: 1006
Ronk, it will with the case but correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the bullets black?

Focus
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/03/2008 at 20:04
RONK View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: April/05/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3199
 LOL! , that didn't occur to me!
 I don't know, but if they are black, he might have to look very closely! ( If the bullet is contacting the rifling hard enough to make chambering difficult, the lands will bite the bullet enough to see the marks all the way around the ogive, even without needing to smoke the cartridge.)
 Can't hurt to try, and he can do it for free, and right now.
 
 Edited to add: You're right, Focus.  They are black oxide(?) according to the O.P.


Edited by RONK - January/03/2008 at 20:06
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/04/2008 at 06:54
Bigdaddy0381 View Drop Down
Optics God
Optics God
Avatar
Georgia peach

Joined: February/27/2007
Location: Georgia
Status: Offline
Points: 12817
Paint a bullet with ( white out) seat it with no powder or primer. slowly close bolt when it stops pull the shel out seat bullet a little deeper and then paint mark.just repeat steps untill the bolt closes easy and see how verything else gose togather and will work from there.
 
I have a gun the has a ton of jump but one of the best rifles I have ever shot. I also have one thats so close to the AOL the if i'm over.001 with my seating deepth I might be cleaning powder out of the action of the gun from bullet stick.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/04/2008 at 07:40
8shots View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight
Avatar
Lord Of The Flies

Joined: March/14/2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 5751
Trigger,
You need first to identify if OCL is in fact the problem with the ballistic tip. I hesitate to say this, but take a cartridge  with  which the bolt  closes with difficulty and tap the bullet deeper into the shell by using a suitable odject, like the handle of a hammer. Only move it back very little, about 4thou of an inch. See if the bolt will now close easier. If so, then the OCL of the silvertips are wrong for your rifle.
You should then not use this brand and consider others with the correct OCL, or handload.
Measuring the OCL from tip to primer may not give the correct result. You need to measure from primer to end of bullet ogive, which is difficult without the correct tool. Hence the need to actually chamber the round and see how it fits.
Again, do not fire this round, as a deeper seated bullet has higher pressure curves and can cause damage and or injury.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/04/2008 at 10:25
mwyates View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: June/15/2004
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 1196

This is the highly technical formula I use for load development:

1.  Load 30 cartridges; 6 ea of 5 different powder charges; same bullet.  Shoot 2 3 shot groups of each.
 
Results: No load shoots good - get a differnt bullet and repeat above
 
              Load shoots good - load more and keep shooting
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/04/2008 at 11:59
pyro6999 View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar
OT TITAN

Joined: December/22/2006
Location: North Dakota
Status: Offline
Points: 22024
i take it a step further than that, if have 5 powders i load up 75 rounds i do three different weights with each powder and work from there, i shoot three shots out of each five and if the first three dont look promising i dont shoot the last two, if the first three look good then i shoot the last two. then i start looking for a different bullet
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/05/2008 at 07:48
Dolphin View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master


Joined: October/05/2006
Location: North Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 1795
Originally posted by trigger29 trigger29 wrote:

I have been shooting a Weatherby Vanguard in .270 WSM (sorry pyro) for the last couple months. With 150gr. Winchester powerpoints it groups about 1/2" @ 100. I planned to try some Winchester ballistic silvertips for deer this year for the higher ballistic coefficient, but groups went to about 4-5" with 130gr. I tried a box of them in 150gr. with the same results. Could this be the black oxide coating that Winchester uses on the bullet, or more the gun just not liking the ballistic tips? I also noticed a couple of these rounds wouldn't chamber in my gun. Would push them up into the chamber and couldn't close the bolt completely. I took the gun home and cleaned it completly spotless and tried again with the same results. The rounds not chambering really bothers me, but I don't know why it would happen. What steps would you guys take to find this problem and correct it. Thank you.
trigger29, did the BTs when chambering require you to put more pressure on the bolt to close it.  I have had varying results with BTs on many of my rifles.  If your bolt is closing with the same amount of perceived pressure, I am going to make this simple, I doubt the ogive of the bullet is being jammed against your lands.  It is not unreasonable to check with some dykem blue or marker of some sort, but with the cartridge passing through the chamber and rubbing against the walls, interruptibility may be difficult.  Now, it may be simply the distance from the lands to the ogive and the jump that differs between the two cartridges that is affecting your accuracy and obviously it prefers the power points.  General dictum states that excessive free bore decreases accuracy, with all other things being equal.  Contrary to popular belief, excessive free bore will decrease the build up pressure and initial velocity while allowing a longer powder burn, while less free bore does the opposite.  Some rifles are designed with more free bore and are optimized to shoot more accurately in the caliber that it was designed for.  Basically, your rifle prefers the power points.  I have many rifles that shoot less than one inch groups with Rem. core lokts and when I switch to a more streamlined bullet like BTs, the groups spread significantly.  This is on several rifles of different brands, so all of the chambers cannot be too short.


Edited by Dolphin - January/05/2008 at 07:51
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/05/2008 at 07:49
pyro6999 View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar
OT TITAN

Joined: December/22/2006
Location: North Dakota
Status: Offline
Points: 22024
well guys i talked to trigger and he figured out the problem, a chunk of the black coating came off a bullet and just kinda rest at the edge of the chamber and this is what was causing the trouble, he cleaned it out and no more problem
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/05/2008 at 11:05
Focus View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar
Conquistador!!

Joined: June/05/2007
Location: Maine
Status: Offline
Points: 1006
Sorry guys......but I hate those bullet coatings. Maybe some like em' but I don't have any use for any kind of bullet coatings that also coat the bore, blue, black, or grey they all turn me off. Glad you found your problem Trigger....

Focus
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/05/2008 at 23:28
RONK View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: April/05/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3199
 
 Very interesting!  Glad it's been figured out without major expense.
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Similar Threads: "Ballistic tip problem"
Subject Author Forum Replies Last Post
Swaro Z-5, Ballistic(BRX - Verses Ballistic Turret JF4545 Rifle Scopes 10
rifle problem or scope problem trigger29 Rifle Scopes 81
Scope problem or rifle problem? flyspy1 Shooting 16
Barnes tipped triple shock bricat Reloading & Ballistics 38
I need tips for cougar hunting cathunter General Hunting 16
basic shooting tips please meangene1975 Shooting 10
6mm w/silencer Ballistic effect Bobster Firearms 4
Burris 2-7x35mm FullField II Rifle with Ballistic 1winnen Tactical Scopes 2
break in tips 1984 Firearms 63
Tips/guidance for mounting my new scope tyrorifleman Tactical Scopes 3


This page was generated in 0.359 seconds.