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Ballistic Reticles vs. Kahles MultiZero

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/08/2009 at 11:13
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The rifle in question is a long-range hunting rifle (out to 500 yards) chambered in .270 Win. which will be used mostly for open-country mule deer, elk and pronghorn in the Western states.

My main questions are:
  1. Do ballistic reticles work at every power setting, or do they work at only one power setting? For example, if I had a new Bushnell 2.5-16x42 Elite 6500, would I need to dial the scope up to 16x every time I wanted to use the reticle?
  2. If I sighted in a BDC at 8x, would I need to be at 8x all the time in order to take advantage of the ballistic reticle's ability?
  3. I plan on using mostly one load, more than likely a 140gr bullet. Would I need to completely re-sight the BDC scope if I wanted to use a 150gr bullet?
  4. With the Kahles MultiZero feature, can a guy just carry around the rifle with the scope set on "C" and use the adjustment rings belwo to take advantage of the five different zero points?
  5. Does a hunter need to use that "key" in the field to change settings?
  6. How easy is the MultiZero to use?
  7. Should I go with a 3-10x50 or a 4-12x52 if I get a Kahles? I've never used a scope with a 50mm objective before, and I'm afraid its height will bother me.

I have a bit more budget for a scope than I had orginally planned and think I can move into these higher-strata scopes. My main concern is getting the scope with which it will be easiest to make long-range shooting more accurate. If push comes to shove, I will give up optical quality for ease of use. I want this to be as brainless as possible....just aim and shoot.

All help will be greatly appreciated.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/08/2009 at 11:47
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Howdy,
 
1. Short answer is there is no short answer. It depends on the reticle (mildot vs. moa) and what magnification at which the reticle is calibrated to be correct, FFP setup vs. SFP. Other considerations apply as well. It is complicated to me.
2. Huh? Which one, ballistic reticle or BDC (Bullet Drop Compensator)?
3. Yes.
4. Yes
5. No
6. Very easy once it is sighted in. Caveat: you must be able to know the actual range to target somehow to set the multizero turret at the correct setting for the shot. Laser works good, mostly, when you are hunting unfamiliar ground.
7. Not much difference between the 50mm and the 52mm. I have both, it is a wash.
 
My opinion, pick a bullet and work out a load and stick with that combination, and use a Kahles MZ scope.  That works best for me hunting N. American game up to big deer and elk with a 280AI and a 140 NAB. The scope I picked is a Kahles CS 3-12x56 MultiZero. YMMV.
 
Regards,
 
Texas


Edited by Texas - May/08/2009 at 12:00
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/08/2009 at 11:49
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I know there are more experienced guys than I, but here are a few answers.  Feel free to correct me if you know more than I...

1 They work on every setting, but you have to check the drop for every different power setting.  My Sightron HHR reticle has different drops at different magnifications.

2 Yes

3 You wouldn't need to re sight.  Just figure out where the impact points are with the new load.

4 Yes

5 No

6 If you take your time and read the instructions, MZ is pretty easy in my books.

7 I'd suggest the 4-12.  The FOV is a bit smaller, but only by 5 feet on low power.




Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/08/2009 at 15:53
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Originally posted by seattlesetters seattlesetters wrote:

Do ballistic reticles work at every power setting, or do they work at only one power setting? For example, if I had a new Bushnell 2.5-16x42 Elite 6500, would I need to dial the scope up to 16x every time I wanted to use the reticle?

With regards to the Bushnell... probably.  It has a second focal plane reticle, so it depends on what magnification the reticle is calibrated to.  Usually, but not always, its the max power setting.  I'm just not familiar with this particular scope to give a definite answer.
 
As far as the question in general is concerned, it depends on the scope.  If the scope has a first focal plane reticle, the reticle works at every power setting, because the reticle is in the same focal plane as the target image.  So, magnification changes have the same proportional effect on the reticle as the target image.  If the scope has a second focal plane reticle, the BDC is calibrated at only one magnification, though it's still usable at other magnifications if you do the math.
 
Originally posted by seattlesetters seattlesetters wrote:

If I sighted in a BDC at 8x, would I need to be at 8x all the time in order to take advantage of the ballistic reticle's ability?
 
Again, it depends.  First of all, if you are just initially "sighting in" using the very center of the reticle, then it doesn't matter what power setting you use; the reticle's center is still the center.
 
If you are establishing the individual distances that correspond to your BDC with your particular rifle, then yes, the reticle would only work at the sight-in power IF it's a SFP reticle.  If it happens to be a FFP reticle, the power used is irrelevant.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/08/2009 at 16:32
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Thanks. So, RifleDude, if I'm understanding you correctly, the Kahles is the same as the Bushnell since its reticle is also in the second focal plane. In other words, to use the MZ feature, I'd not only have to adjust to get to the proper center (say 300yards), but I'd also need to remember at what power setting I sighted in at 300 yards, and adjust to that setting, as well, correct?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/08/2009 at 16:42
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No, the Kahles MZ scope is still using the reticle center only, and you are dialing in the yardage with the elevation turret rather than using the reticle for ballistic compensation.  The elevation turret moves the reticle position a set amount, independent of magnification, so power setting is irrelevant with it too.  The various yardages you decide to sight the scope in at are set on the indicator marks on the elevation turret disks.  The reason a BDC style reticle in SFP is only calibrated for one magnification is because the spacing between stadia lines in the reticle is different at different powers as the target image magnification changes, yet the size of the reticle remains the same.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/08/2009 at 16:58
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Got it. Thanks for the help.

It appears the Kahles MultiZero is rather easy to use, once you get the hang of making the tiny adjustments to the turret while in the field. It seems as if a guy could get so that it was second nature fairly quickly.

One more question to all: Should I go with a 3-10x50 or a 4-12x52 if I get a Kahles? It will sit atop a .270 Win that will be used to distances of 500 yards for pronghorn, but inside of 300 yards 90% of the time.

Edited by seattlesetters - May/08/2009 at 16:59
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/08/2009 at 20:59
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Hey ss
 
You've been given correct information.  I have 2 of the 4x12x52 MZ's and really like them.  They are not dependent upon setting the power in order to shoot at distance.
 
First, you can adjust the marks with any sharp object.  I no longer get out the red adjustment tool that comes with them when moving the marks, just use the point of a ballpoint pen.  The silver layers shown here are recessed and under a little tension but can be moved with a sharp object
 
even the top of the turret can be manipulated with the red tool
 
or with any 2 pronged instrument
 
so you will not be totally lost if you are in the field without the red tool, but it is the easiest to use.
 
I have been into ballistic reticles for a long time with the Burris Ballistic Mil Dot, Burris Ballistic Plex, Kahles TDS, Zeiss RapidZ's and now the MultiZeros.  For the 270 the 4.5x14x50 Zeiss Conquest RapidZ800 would also be a good choice.  I ran a 140 gr Accubond with a muzzle velocity of 3050 fps on the RapidZ calculator on the Zeiss website and you would be able to shoot on 12 power or close to it.  That's the same as my 6.5 rem mag with 130 gr Scirroccos.  It works good and is an excellent scope at a lower price.
 
For either the MultiZero or the RapidZ you can set the marks or check the power setting without actually shooting at long range.  Just run a ballistics program and set dots at the calculated subtensions,shoot at 100 yards and you can get real close
 
It is best to verify at the longer ranges though.
 
One thing I learned quick with the ballistic reticles is that if you are going to shoot at the longer ranges, the higher the power the better.   I once had a Kahles 3x9 AH with the TDS reticle after 300 yards the magnification was just not adequate to fully use the reticle.
 
Get either the 4x12x52 MultiZero or the 4.5x14x44 or 50 Conquest RapidZ 800 and you will be a happy camper.
 
 
BTW, after rereading your post it sounded like you think that you will have to adjust the marks in the field in order to shoot.  Not so.  The marks will be preset and all you do is rotate the turret to the correct yardage and shoot.  One very excellent feature of the MultiZero is that if you range a target at an intermediate yardage, you can still set your scope to aim right on.  Like this would be the setting for my MZ at 540 yards (zero stop set at 200 yards)
 
 


Edited by sakomato - May/09/2009 at 10:31
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/08/2009 at 22:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/08/2009 at 22:32
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CheersSako, that was an excellent explanation of the proper adjustment for the multi-zero.  Kudos.  ExcellentExcellentWOW


HOWEVER... we expect a "do over" on that middle target...


Edited by Kickboxer - May/08/2009 at 22:34
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/09/2009 at 00:22
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The orange dot moved right when I pulled the trigger!!  Big Grin
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/09/2009 at 07:54
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Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

The orange dot moved right when I pulled the trigger!!  Big Grin


You too?  Happens to me all the time!

As always, good use of pics to support your post, Sako!Excellent
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/09/2009 at 11:55
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Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

The orange dot moved right when I pulled the trigger!!  Big Grin
YippeeLaugh AboveRoll on Floor Laughing
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/09/2009 at 14:15
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You could simplify your life a lot, save money,  have a more reliable rig and avoid all that knob twiddling by buying a quality 6X scope which has plenty of magnification for big game at the ranges you specify.

Impossible to beat this one and the #7 reticle gives you a built in holdover by using the thick part of the plex if needed. You can also use it to beat in tent stakes when not hunting.

http://www.swfa.com/pc-2429-282-schmidt-bender-6x42-fixed-riflescope.aspx

A 270 with a 140 grain bullet in premium factory ammo has a point blank range of 400 yards on deer sized game, so if you hold mid chest behind the shoulder you will fill the freezer.

When you bash a rifle around crawling through the brush, in a scabbard or a jeep the less to go wrong the better. Variable powers, ballistic knobs and parallax adjustments are all nice features but totally unnecessary for your application and if they can break, they will break when you are least able to get them fixed.

If the Schmidt is too rich, both Leupold & Burris make fine 6X scopes that are also close to bulletproof.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/11/2009 at 22:30
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Well, I'm convinced!  Need to simplify.  Sad
 
Anyone know where I can get a truck with just one gear?  I can drive down the freeway at 45 mph or so, but who would ever need the low gear or the high gear?  Would be very dependable.  Not so good at low speeds and not so good at high speeds, but just right, some of the time.
 
Should be tough without all those unnecessary moving parts.  Then I could use it on weekends for the destruction derby!  Vato
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/11/2009 at 22:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2009 at 00:03
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Just like having only one firearm.   Mouth Taped Shut            Shocked
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2009 at 06:36
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Well, yeah!  Good idea!  One firearm, one scope, 270 with a straight 6x!  Super
Simplify everywhere, like just bread and water.  No crawfish and beer, no massages with happy endings or cigars, who needs all that spice-of-life stuff??!!  Trust Me
 
I mean, I know we were discussing something totally different but from now on whenever anyone asks about any scope here I'm gonna butt in and tell them they are on the wrong track and just use a
STRAIGHT 6X ON A 270!  Kneel Suckers
 
 
Where's pyro?  I've got to give him the news!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2009 at 13:58
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The OP was saying he had a 270 and was looking for scope options for hunting out to 500 yards with a 140 gr bullet. All the "off topic" comments and cute icons don't really change that now do they? If any of you think an accurate 270 with a Schmidt 6X will not work for him, I'd like to know why. Antelope, Deer and Elk are large to very large targets but don't often stand around for 5 minutes while all the mechanical stuff needed to range, set power, set parallax and adjust elevation by turning knobs. Hunters in the old days killed a lot more game than most of us will ever see with fixed power scopes from 2.5-6X. They also had Cigars, beer, crawfish and good  Bourbon. Not sure about the massages but perhaps shared an Eskimo wife.......
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/13/2009 at 08:10
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Hey outlook, just check out the title of the thread.  It is only common courtesy to offer something that has to do with the subject at hand.  If you start a thread titled "Simplify with a straight 6x", I guarantee you I will not post on that thread about ballistic reticles or MultiZero technology.  If I did post it would have to do with the narrow field of view of the 6x and how that has gotten me in trouble in the field before I switched to scopes that could adjust to a lower power.  That would be information gathered from personal experience.

Edited by sakomato - May/13/2009 at 08:12
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/13/2009 at 08:17
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Nice photo, too bad it constitutes identity theft as well as publication
of data illegally obtained from government records. If it remains on the
site after 2359 eastern today, I will be contacting the local police, FBI and USAFSS
to file an identity theft complaint against SWFA, it's owners and sll
moderators of the site.As I pointed out to Cyborg inmy PM to him
messing around is one thing, this is way beyond that. I urge common
sense to take over from a vendetta.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/13/2009 at 08:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/13/2009 at 09:36
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Well thanks for telling me who did it.

You must have missed:

"Examples of information which may be available from
Official Military Personnel Files without
an unwarranted invasion of privacy....."

I'm sure the appropriate authorities will view a childish
gotcha vendetta as an "unwarranted invasion of privacy."

Since in a legal sense (nice to have attorney in family!)
you had "no standing" to make this request, I'm sure
the PRC will take a dim view of it. Interstate identity
theft is a serious matter. The PRC will also tell me who did
it, when and why.

Boys being boys is one thing, but misusing government agencies
to subject someone to potential identity theft is over
the top.

You really gotta realize actions like this have consequesnces.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/13/2009 at 09:40
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Then there is the question of IDENTITY FRAUD, which results from lying about military record, which is a basis and standing for FOIA requests. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/13/2009 at 09:48
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Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Then there is the question of IDENTITY FRAUD, which results from lying about military record, which is a basis and standing for FOIA requests. 
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