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ATN16x65Z on a M1A Springfield

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/10/2008 at 23:19
Mharsh View Drop Down
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  Hey Guys, new to this site.  I am an advid shooter of CQB (Military).  Getting into Long Range shooting for pleasure.  I am buying an M1A Match Grade Springfield.  It's a done deal, not changing my mind on that. 
  I have two questions for the forum.....
  1.  Before I throw $1000+ on a good scope, I first want to know if..... anyone has bought/used the ATN 16x65Z Scope.  Looking through this forum, I see ATN get piss poor remarks.  I really like the design, and the 65MM lens.  This provides great field of view.  I will be engaging targets a 1000 meters+.  With the prismatic design, this should prevent the need for an elevated Cheek Rest.  (Hopefully)  Is this a waste as I am reading?
  2.  If indeed this scope is great, has anyone tried to mount it to a Springfield M1A Rifle.  This rifle has a high/big rear sight behind the ejection port.  Most rail systems bolt on and hang above the ejection port, but still behind the fixed rear sight.  With the ATN 15x65Z sight, with the prismatic design, the eye piece hangs down.  This will cause a problem with the fixed sight.  I do not want to remove it.  I have found one rail system that looked like it might fit by Smith Enterprises, it looks like it will extend over the fixed sight.  Does anyone have a clue?
 
  Thank you for your effort.  Mharshman
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/10/2008 at 23:31
koshkin View Drop Down
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A few comments:

-ATN is crap (unless they have radically changed their scopes within the last year or so).
-Size of the objective lens has little if anything to do with the field of view.  If anything larger objective lenses typically have less field of view.
-The best way to engage a target with an ATN scope is by throwing it at the target, so 1000yards is unlikely.
-For a grand or less you can choose from a number of very nice scopes: IOR 4-14x50, Meopta Meostar 4-16x44, Bushnell Elite 6500 2.5-16x42, and a bunch more.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2008 at 00:05
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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ATN is a waste of money. I've tried several optics on an M1a and at this point the rifle is open sights. The most success I have had was placing an Aimpoint on the M1a as an Aimpoint does not require you maintain a consistent cheek weld. These rifles can be made into scoped sniper rifles but it involves money - lots of money http://www.gaprecision.com/
ARMS18 ARMS%20#18%20M21/14%20Scope%20Mount%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 ARMS #18 M21/14 Scope Mount
  • 1913 Mil-Std
SWFA: $183.95
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The ARMS mount is preferable to the Springfield Armory mount which I unfortunately have and there are some out there possibly better shop around the more it cost the better it is likely to be. I also put a Smith Vortex flash suppressor on mine and like that quite a bit.
I would probably be inclined to try something like a 10x Super Sniper on the Arms mount with Badger Rings.  But like I said for me the most satisfactory results were with an Aimpoint set up like in the move Balackhawk down where the two snipers go in one with an M14 with aimpoint.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2008 at 00:18
Mharsh View Drop Down
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  Thanks for the info.  I'll keep shopping/researching.  The ATN has a 3" Eye relief....  That I liked also.  I will look into your recommendations............  Mharsh
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2008 at 00:21
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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Also worth mention Horniday new reloading manual gives lower power load specs for Military .308  If you dont reload shoot military ball, Federal makes some American Eagle ball ammo that is ideal.  A Schuster gas plug is also a good idea:
Do not shoot heavy bullets like the 180 grain without turning off the gas system or it will bend the Op Rod.   Great guns but they are a huge pain in the ..... compared to the AR10.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2008 at 00:23
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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SS10X42 Super%20Sniper%2010x42%2030mm%20Rifle%20Scope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 Super Sniper 10x42 30mm Rifle Scope
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  • OK for .50 cal
SWFA: $299.95
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And the Super Sniper 10x has a 4 inch eye relief that's better unless you like black eyes.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2008 at 00:28
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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Trust me forget the ATN if you have money to spend buy a Leupold 4.5-14x50 Mark 4 or buy an IOR. Also suggest you look at the Trijicon ACOG scopes to see if that might work for you.  All said unless I changed out the stock or added a really solid cheek piece and I think they are now available  I would go Aimpoint because of the cheekweld issue with traditional optics.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2008 at 00:37
Mharsh View Drop Down
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  Hey thanks for your info.  I have some money to blow.  But can't afford the H&K PSG1 rifle or the M25 Whitefeather.  The M21 might be in my range..... I am buying this specifically for long range targets.  Aimpoint is not what I am looking for.  I have several rifles that I use for CQB, with EOTECH 551 sights.  Below is the Smith Mount.  As you can see, it extends out way past normal mounts.  Built for ACOG's.  I guess I will keep shopping around for the perfect scope.  I was only looking for this specific mount to accomodate the ATN scope.  Awhile back, I was looking at Shepard Scopes.  Then saw poor remarks with those also.
  Mharsh
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2008 at 07:51
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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the m1a is anything but a 1000 yd gun,. the only reason for using it is you have to (military) or one is shooting in a match that the rules dictate it. Sadlak makes the best mounts -- nothing comes close-- some of the others are usuable, and eotech with the short eye relief need a set back. the ss is better for this gun than the ones you mention and increases the guns factor several fold, any serious long range shooting will require a cheek rest.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2008 at 08:24
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Mharsh, I have an ATN.  Went through SIX scopes before I got one that worked (this is number seven) and they finally ended up giving it to me for less than half what they sell for.  The one I have now is OK, but I do not recommend buying one.  The fact that they kept sending me replacements at their cost and that I got it for much less than one can be purchased now is the only reason I still have it.  It is heavy.  However the BDC works very well on the 30-06 I have it mounted on.  Again, take the advice above and get something else.  I don't believe you want the headaches.  I would not purchase another and wish I had had a forum like this before I bought this one.  I still have it because I would not take the risk of unloading it on someone.  I have pretty much been through all the problems that one of these things can present (I HOPE) and know what to expect from it.  CAUTION...DO NOT ENTER. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2008 at 09:30
Rancid Coolaid View Drop Down
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Mharsh, if you have decided on an M1, get an M1 - though what is said above is true: M1s require some babying to stay dead-nutz.  They can be very accurate, but they can also be very frustrating.  It is a great gun, I own a SOCOM and like it allot - but a 1000-yard gun it ain't.

Avoid any mount made by Springfield, they are crap.  Several options exist. If you have some cash to spend on the project, consider a whole new stock by Fulton Armory or Vltor; they ain't cheap, but they work.

Next, scope choices are many, but for a 1000-yard shot, get something with plenty of elevation adjustment.  And, of course, there is the obligatory, "1,000 yard shots are not easy, start at a reasonably range, get your confidence and dope, then progress  out to 1,000 yards.  If you take a 100-yard zero, spin up someone else's theoretical come-ups to 1,000, expect to see maggie's drawers - allot."

Have fun.

In closing, it ain't as sexy or as cool, but for the $$ you are dropping on a good M1, you can buy a kick-ass bolt gun that'll shoot great groups at 1,000 yards all day.  A good M1 will do it, but it's gonna take some work  and $$ to get there.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2008 at 16:25
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I can't add much to the scope question but I too just recently got into long range shooting with my M1A.  The thing I found really helpful was throwing my Springfield mount off the nearest bridge and replacing it with the ARMS mount Urimaginaryfrnd mentionded.  The ARMS mount is really low, meaning you have more room to adjust scope height by buying different height rings. 
 
The other thing that helped a lot was getting a custom stock.  I don't know about the FA or Vltors but my McMillan M3A is great.  Get one with an integral adjustable cheekpiece, or better yet, the thumbwheel adjustable cheekpiece.  Have it glass bedded.  Of course, if you do get the M21 you might not need to.  Why don't you want to remove the rear sight?  If you plan on using the iron sights ok, but if not get that thing out of there.  It'll let you drop your scope a good 1/8" to 1/4".
 
Seriously though, get rid of the Springfield mount.  Even after applying Loctite to mine my POI would start to drift every 8-10 rounds.  After adding the ARMS mount and making NO other changes I took my rifle out and put 100 rounds through it without seeing any noticeable POI change.  From what I've heard the Springfield mounts tend to stress the receiver because they aren't held to very good tolerances.  As your reciever heats up it warps and stuff moves around.
 
The last major thing I've done to mine was to add a heavy pattern Krieger barrel.  That's been really helpful in keeping my groups small later in the day.  I don't have to worry nearly as much about how hot my barrel is.  The first three rounds of the day and the last three all stay in the same place and keep the same size.  Ok, time for me to stop rambling.  Hope this helps.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2008 at 17:05
Mharsh View Drop Down
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  Thanks Kickboxer....  This is exactly the info I need.  Sorry to hear about your pain, suffering, and money lost.   If anything, you saved me time, money and a headache.
   Thanks again.  Mharsh
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2008 at 17:35
Mharsh View Drop Down
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  Thanx Rancid Coolaid,   I was going with a mount that is steel, I do like A.R.M.s mounts.   The vibe I getting from some is that I am a weekend shooter.  I am a professional shooter in small arms.  Just not long range/ sniper.  I run rifle ranges and shoot houses every month.  I have no problem engaging targets, with iron sights @ 1000 meters with an M240 Machine Gun. (Double E-silhouette)  And 600 meters, iron sights on a standard M16A2 5.56MM (Almost consistant, single silhouette).   I know that I will be able to reach that far with an M1A.
  I have always loved the history of the M1A, and do not prefer any bolt action.  The stock will not matter to me.   I see many Science Fiction Stocks for the M1A, many with rails for flashlights, handguard pistol grip.  I can't believe people spend another $700 for that, when the factory stock is fine by it's self.  Why the H#$% do I need a flashlight attached if I am on a hill top shooting 300-1000 meter distantances?  Or if you just want to impress the lady's?
  Just my out look.  Mharsh
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2008 at 17:40
Mharsh View Drop Down
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   Thanx Orkboy,  again I will go with a steel mount.  I like A.R.M.s mounts.  I would never remove the iron sights in the event that the scope breaks in the field, or I want to remove it and shoot Iron for fun.  I am sure down the road I will replace the Barrel with a Krieger.
 
  Thanx for your input.    Mharsh
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2008 at 22:14
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Marsh,

Several things to consider scoping an M1A, which you noted.  The darn glass is unreasonably high.

Aftermarket stock, McMillan most notably provides a good cheekpiece, but the heel is still to the original design, so with a scope it feels like the rifle butt is under the armpit.

Here's Springfields version, and it is like shooing a bolt gun.

 
The mount that seems to really hold up is this one.
 
I've drop tested it on concrete, with scope attached from chest high, holds zero without issue.  Bedding methods have also changed,from that big hunk of red stuff to a really neat Devcon job from Springfield.  You can't visually tell the rifle si bedded without pulling the action.  Accuracy improvement over the old method is dramatic.  Springfield will put your factory M1A in the M21 stock for $625.00 shipped.  Only takes 30 days door to door.
 
On loads, get a Schuster adjustable gas plug.  Cost is $54.00 delivered from Brownells, and it lets me run the same 175 grain 2640fps load in both my bolt gun and the M1A.
At 1000 yards the rifle will shoot as well as I can hold.  It wil match my bolt rifle at that distance, and that ain't too shabby.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/12/2008 at 09:39
Mharsh View Drop Down
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 Thanx Mike McDonald,  I like your rifle set up a great deal.   The Gas Plug change is very well noted.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/14/2008 at 09:12
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 I did'nt know koshkin liked those ATN scopes so much .... LOL ! I  have to agree and they look and feel like they're made out of pot metal .... the crap they skim off the top before casting .
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