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AR-15 Trigger Job

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/29/2009 at 09:11
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Chief Sackscratch

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advise deleted



Edited by SVT_Tactical - December/31/2009 at 07:56
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/29/2009 at 09:57
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Did you reharden the metal?  If you didn't they will wear out in very few rounds and your gun could have the potential to start shooting bursts. 

Sears and hammers and hardened from the factory so they will not wear out very fast.  Just the slightest polishing and grinding will wear that very thin layer or hardener right off the trigger. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/29/2009 at 10:10
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Chief Sackscratch

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I thought of that too but looked at the material and even called a couple manufacturing/distributor companies for USGI triggers.  They all stated there was no hardening process done to the parts where the sears touch.  I will let you know in the long run if anything comes up but on a few ar forums some guys have ran this set up for years with no problems.

Edited by SVT_Tactical - December/29/2009 at 10:11
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/29/2009 at 10:55
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GEISSELE TRIGGERS ARE THE BEST AND WELL WORTH THE EXTRA MONEY NOTHING COMPARES TO THEM...
for the very few $$$ you will have a perfect trigger.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/29/2009 at 11:01
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Originally posted by SVT_Tactical SVT_Tactical wrote:

  They all stated there was no hardening process done to the parts where the sears touch.  


Whoever told you that doesn't know what he/she is talking about.  All sear surfaces HAVE to be heat treated / case hardened / through hardened for longevity and safety.  If the trigger parts were through hardened, you don't have a problem.  If they were case hardened, you could have a problem if you ground through the case.  If you polished only, chances are you don't have a problem.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/29/2009 at 11:24
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Chief Sackscratch

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All i did was polish the above mentioned youtube video does have the guy using a stone but i wasn't looking to remove material only polish it. 

I have used the Geissel triggers, and your right,  but for money I like my $5 investment and spent the rest of my coin on other stuff. lol

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/29/2009 at 16:38
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Thanks for the links!
My AR GI single stage trigger is rougher than a cob and would benefit from some type of makeover, for sure.  
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/29/2009 at 17:18
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by SVT_Tactical SVT_Tactical wrote:

  They all stated there was no hardening process done to the parts where the sears touch.  


Whoever told you that doesn't know what he/she is talking about.  All sear surfaces HAVE to be heat treated / case hardened / through hardened for longevity and safety.  If the trigger parts were through hardened, you don't have a problem.  If they were case hardened, you could have a problem if you ground through the case.  If you polished only, chances are you don't have a problem.


I agree with part one and two. You would have a very hard time getting through the hardened layer using rouge and a felt wheel. If you ground with an abrasive wheel before polishing you could be in trouble.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/29/2009 at 21:22
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Let us know if you run into any problems. I've got a couple I'd like to work on too. Wonder if this procedure works on an AR10?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2009 at 08:05
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Hey, thanks for the info.  My ar trigger is gritty.  I have done trigger jobs on pistols, revolvers and rifles.  This is going to be on my to do list. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2009 at 08:15
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Chief Sackscratch

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Originally posted by BillyWayne BillyWayne wrote:

Hey, thanks for the info.  My ar trigger is gritty.  I have done trigger jobs on pistols, revolvers and rifles.  This is going to be on my to do list. 
 
It takes about 20 minutes and your results will be worth it!
 
And i do think the AR10 will fall under the same thing.


Edited by SVT_Tactical - December/30/2009 at 08:15
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2009 at 09:14
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doing trigger jobs on ars has been around sense Vietnam. most of the triggers and parts from ar's are investment castings, not good tool steel which is cut to dimension than heat treated for hardness. this means that steels using low dimensional change are chosen for the parts , to cut down on fitting labor. Ars have large dimensions in both the pins, and holes and the actual contact parts involved. In some cases I've seen sear and hammer surfaces with less than 20% contact. sometimes removing material and trying to get a higher percentage contact works. Biggest problem with the ar trigger group (besides pins and holes dimensions) is the basic design. The single lever design at the base of the hammer puts too much pressure on the contacting surfaces. also using the primary sear as part of the trigger is not a good idea for a good trigger group. In contrast the M1a trigger group uses the hammer lever further up, and reduces the release pressure considerably, and the reason why a good m1a can have an outstanding trigger pull. Most after market triggers are designed to correct this geometry mistake, and do so very well. Anything on youtube should be considered for entertainment purposes only.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2009 at 09:22
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Chief Sackscratch

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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

doing trigger jobs on ars has ............................ ...........................................................this geometry mistake, and do so very well. Anything on youtube should be considered for entertainment purposes only.
 
I worked as instructional for me.  Heck I build my first lower by watching the clips that midway put on YouTube.  It can be more than entertainment.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2009 at 09:30
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thats one thing if its from midway.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2009 at 09:44
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Maybe I am interpreting this wrong.......  Yes if it is from Joe Blow with his camera in his shop maybe take some warning not to take it as qualified, However the fact that so many sites are referencing the website and youtube videos to expand on what the website is talking about I figure its educational enough.  I agree that not all on youtube is informational and should be used but not everything thats on there is entertainment.  The number of people that are trying this technique is growing daily. Worst case senerio is for someone to try it, no like it, buy replacement springs ($5) and new trigger ($12) and be back at the start. at square one.  I challenge anyone to try this and not think that this is a 100% inprovement from the stock USGI issue trigger pull.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2009 at 09:55
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I tried one similar to that which I found off a internet site and it did not take long til my trigger started to not catch.  Got a few double taps.  At first I could not figure out what was wrong, then it dawned on me it must have been my do it yourself trigger job.  I took to much of the surface off and got through the hardener and just kind of rounded my parts off a little.  It only took 300 to 400 rounds to cause it.  But it was fun having it burst on the range.  Big Smile

It was most likely me just not doing it right, but it made me pretty nervous about doing it again.  I replaced it with a Timney and it is much better than my trigger job anyway.   Course it cost me $200

Brownells sell surface hardener that you can apply with a torch to harden it back up.  Might be worth doing.  A couple guys I know have used it on AR parts and said it works great. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2009 at 10:09
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I think the biggest warning from all this is not to remove material only polish the surfaces on the sear.  I do not recommend changing specs only removing the machining marks by doing a good polish.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2009 at 14:40
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there is nothing new here, its been done since vietnam, its just you kids are finding out about it. even if you do just polish, the chances  the hammer sear "chips" and goes auto is higher, basic trigger groups in most ars are basic sh*t, plain and simple. cleaning up the angles and contacts surfaces is the problem, not just a simple polish, this is best done by drop in "hanger" groups where the relation of the sears is kept constant by a box, and the entire group is allowed to float in the lower via the pin assembly.
note that bursts and doubles are caused by the hammer following the bolt carrier down and the bolt does not have time to lock up as in a true select fire arrangement, this is asking for a case head failure. While there are open bolt autos out there (have an orginal  uzi) these were never orginally designed to be closed bolt as ars.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2009 at 19:19
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 I'll throw my opinion in here if anybody cares to hear it.
 
 I like to see guys take a serious interest in learning more about their guns, by tweaking them here and there for better performance, accuracy, etc. That's how (most) of the master gunsmiths and custom gunmakers in the world today got started, and that's how they learned, whether we like to admit it or not. (And plenty of them ruined guns along the way, too.)
 That said, most triggers are almost always in a gray area in that regard, and in my opinion, auto and semi-auto triggers are in a red zone.  Don't go there unless you have a true professional gunsmith looking over your shoulder. It doesn't take a great deal of imagination to envision what could happen when a good trigger goes bad. And re-worked Mil-spec AR15 triggers usually go bad fairly quickly, (usually within a couple hundred rounds, depending on how deep the case-hardening is. It is usually VERY thin!)
 A semi-auto going full auto on you in the wrong place and time can literally get you thrown into prison in this day and age. It happened to a guy here in Wisconsin recently.
 I don't know the full story, but his (AR?) malfunctioned and fired a burst at the range. A couple cops saw it happen, and the last I heard, he was looking at 5-10 (?) in a penitentiary. I think he is serving time now, but am not current on the story.
 
Want a good trigger on your AR15?
 Buy a Jewell, Timney, Giesselle, or any of several others.
Seriously.
 
 (Dale is a pretty blunt fellow sometimes, but he is dead right on this one, in every respect he mentioned.)
 
 BTW,  I'm not harpin' on ya, SVT. I know your thread is well-intentioned and I might easily have  posted a similar thread in past years, before age and experience had jaded me so... 
 
Edited for spelling.


Edited by RONK - December/30/2009 at 19:22
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2009 at 22:38
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Thanks Dale and Ronk. Your experience can help save alot of heart ache "if heeded". I don't hesitate to polish or tweak something if I can't find any info on the pros & cons. But like you said, I run the risk of having to start over or replace parts sometimes. My advantage is years of experience making tools and parts when needed. Or know I can order what I need if necessary. I also appreciate you statment about being willing to make the effort for improvment. It helps one to better understand function and purpose. Then before you know it someone has come up with an improvment that we all can benefit from.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2009 at 23:35
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Any chance any one on this thread has even ever heard of Geisselle triggers... Absolte gold for the civilan market...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2009 at 23:38
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pro nounced in some groups the Victoria Secret Gisele Bunchkin but really GUY LEE...
 
Why tinker and risk something unexected happening...if you want to tinker get out your 10/22 you can work on those triggers all day...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2009 at 00:11
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Originally posted by 338LAPUASLAP 338LAPUASLAP wrote:

Any chance any one on this thread has even ever heard of Geisselle triggers... Absolte gold for the civilan market...
I'm running one that I got frome White Oak Armory -  they are the best available.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2009 at 07:48
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off topic a bit, but will add anyway---  when early ignition occurs, due to hammer follow down, and bolt is not timed , part of the locking lug of the first one to engage, can be chipped or peened back. This occurs more with mauser type (two lugs, ak,m1a,xcr) than ar short rotating bolts, which will chip out an entire piece of the tightess fitting lug. I know thisfrom experience of working with NFA guns alot. take it or leave it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2009 at 07:49
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Originally posted by 338LAPUASLAP 338LAPUASLAP wrote:

pro nounced in some groups the Victoria Secret Gisele Bunchkin but really GUY LEE...
 
Why tinker and risk something unexected happening...if you want to tinker get out your 10/22 you can work on those triggers all day...
 
I tinker on an ar, my 10-22 has had every part imaginable tinkered with until i got bored.
 
As far as everyone elses advices, Dale, others,  i do appreciate it.  And i will take note.  I dont' shoot in public ranges and have close to 150 acres of land to shoot on.  If it goes south, when it does,  I will replace it with a drop in. Like i said to begin with I will drop in a Chip McCormick if i can find another, meaning i have several ar's some have drop in's already, This was a test to see if the regular trigger can be worked a little to make it better for the budget minded shooter.  i will keep things posted for this, I have right at a 1000rds loaded for this weekend and we will see how it holds up.
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