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Any alternatives to Leupold Mark 4 M3???

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2009 at 23:47
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Hello,
 
New here.  Trying to find an alternative to the Leupold Mark 4 10x40 M3 Mil Dot.  It's a pricey scope but fits my needs exactly (400/600/800/1000 yard silhouette).  Just wondering if there's anything out there a little cheaper that would serve?
 
Thanks to all,
 
WB
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/23/2009 at 01:36
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Try this:


I would take this over an M4 any day of the week and twice on weekend.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/23/2009 at 03:43
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You could also look into a US Optics ST-10.  By the time you pretty much fully load one up, it is still the same price as s Leupy.  If you decide that you don't neek the ERGO or EREK (I didn't feel like I did) you are well under that price. 
 
The new SS is a great deal too.
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/23/2009 at 07:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/23/2009 at 07:41
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Cant beat the price on the SS but if that still to much for you then bushnell has a elite 3200 fixed 10x scope too but no AO on it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/23/2009 at 08:03
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I'll take a look at the others.  SS and 3200 are out because of 1/4 MOA adjustments.  I need the 1 MOA adjustments for faster LR shots.  Should have mentioned that.

Thanks,
 
WB
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/23/2009 at 10:47
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Few scopes have 1 MOA elevation adjustments; if that is the big thing, you will be limited in options.
 
 
I shoot long range (and though I prefer single-turn or double-turn turrets), 1/4MOA works fine and is much, much more precise at long range.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/23/2009 at 10:59
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Few scopes have 1 MOA elevation adjustments; if that is the big thing, you will be limited in options.
 
 
I shoot long range (and though I prefer single-turn or double-turn turrets), 1/4MOA works fine and is much, much more precise at long range.
 
Wouldn't the 1/4 moa be more accurate at long ranges?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/23/2009 at 11:19
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Originally posted by SVT_Tactical SVT_Tactical wrote:

Wouldn't the 1/4 moa be more accurate at long ranges?


1 MOA @ 1000 yards is 10.47" so, yes, being able to make adjustments 1/4 that size (2.62") makes quite a difference. For that matter, so does 1/10 mil adjustments (3.6").

Warmbore, consider too that some turrets allow you to rapidly adjust for elevation, making faster LR shots no problem even if the increments are finer than 1 MOA. High-end scopes such as the Premier or USO are prime examples of this, but someone can tell you how many turns it takes to get an SS from a 100-yard zero to 1000 (less than 10 mils). There are plenty of highly respected tactical shooters who have no problem with a NF scope taking two turns to get there. Besides the SS, take a look at those new Vortex Viper PST scopes, particularly the 2.5-10x44 (5 mils/turn).


Edited by jonoMT - December/23/2009 at 11:22
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/23/2009 at 11:28
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The SS I linked has 0.1mrad adjustments.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/23/2009 at 11:40
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There are fast long range shots, and accurate long range shots but there are no fast, accurate long range shots.

That MkIV M3 isn't going to hold zero reliably so take a look at some good scopes in mil or moa. A dial is a dial is a dial.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/23/2009 at 11:41
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What are you intended targets?  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/23/2009 at 11:52
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Originally posted by Mike McDonald Mike McDonald wrote:

There are fast long range shots, and accurate long range shots but there are no fast, accurate long range shots.

Amen! Thanks for cutting to the heart of the matter. If you consider all of what it takes to set up a long-range shot and the time involved, what fraction of that is spent turning a turret?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/23/2009 at 12:02
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Originally posted by Mike McDonald Mike McDonald wrote:

There are fast long range shots, and accurate long range shots but there are no fast, accurate long range shots.

Well said.
 
 
For long range, 1MOA is way too course for my purposes.
 
Also, consider that you can add a BDC turret (like kenton industries) to many scopes that is dialed in for your rifle and your round.  With that, spin up to target distance and shoot, that you make 60 clicks rather than 15 is, in my opinion, inconsequential.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/23/2009 at 12:09
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You can go 1/2MOA with the USO, plus you can get it with a MOA reticle.
 
Also, there is the Burris XTR 6-24 that has 1MOA adjustments (I think that they are still being made).
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/24/2009 at 00:00
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Try this:


I would take this over an M4 any day of the week and twice on weekend.

ILya
I have had both scopes and I much prefer the Super Sniper 10x HD. The real problem that people have with the 10x M3 stems from the fact that the clicks on the scope are 1 MOA click which is a rather coarse adjustment meaning that at 600 yds one click moves point of impact 6 inches  or 2 clicks moves point of impact 12 inches at 600 yds.  Same Same at 800 yds one click moves the point of impact 8 inches that may be fine and idiot proof for a battle scope since it only has one revolution of the dial and under stress you can not get lost in the dial but for a target scope it sucks.  M1 Tactical knobs move 1/4 moa so at 600 each click is a fourth of six inches or 1.5 inches.   I can live with a target adjustment that allows me to adjust the impact 1.5 inches each click at 600 yds  or
 similarly at 800 yds each click is 2.0 inches.
With the 1/10 mil clicks each click at 600 moves it 2 inches and at 800 each click moves it 2.8 inches which is still quite livable where an 8 inch per click adjustment is way to coarse.
The other issue with the M3 scope is it is designed for a flat base not a plus 20moa or plus 30 moa base.  Put a M3 on a plus 20 moa base and you start off 20 inches high at 100 with no possible way to zero the scope  -- ask me how I know -  Ive been there.
Buy the Super Sniper 10x HD and dont look back.


Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - December/25/2009 at 00:36
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/24/2009 at 09:38
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I concur.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/24/2009 at 10:27
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Having used the M3 (I've never owned one) I'm fully aware of the capabilities.  What I was hoping for with my original post was to find a cheaper version.
 
Everything you mention is true.  However 1 MOA is on elevation (.5 MOA on windage).  On a 36" sil aimed at COM (score is HIT/MISS) you have plenty of error for sils at any range out to 1000 yards (1000 yards is dicey for my abilities I will admit and because I'm a bad wind doper).  The M3 is a great scope to learn doping as it reduces field calculations to 1 click per inch and it's damn near impossible to get lost on the dial.  If you need to come up 9" then give it 9 clicks.  But it's use is really limited to sils (and/or military applications).
 
The accuracy (and coarseness) of this scope can be summed up in the following example:
 
Given: .308 180gr HPBT with MV of 2695 fps and 100 yard zero, prone.
DOPE for 1000 feet Elevation at 60 deg F. calm.
Targets ranged from 50 yards to 130 yards require 0 clicks to make a HIT
140 yards to 180 yards come up 1 click
190 yards to 220 yards come up 2 clicks
230 yards to 260 yards come up 3 clicks
270 yards to 290 yards come up 4 clicks
300 yards to 330 yards come up 5 clicks
340 yards to 360 yards come up 6 clicks
370 yards to 390 yards come up 7 clicks
400 yards to 420 yards come up 8 clicks
430 yards to 450 yards come up 9 clicks
460 yards to 480 yards come up 10 clicks
 
and on and on out to 1000 yards with a mere 36 clicks (which BTW runs me to within a few clicks of the scope's limit).
 
These can easily be memorized and you don't have to think in multiple clicks nor do any mental conversions.  I have mine memorized out to 600 yards for this DOPE and could probably fake it (guess) out to 800 yards.  Beyond that I refer to the data sheet and rely on spotter to read it.  Spotter calls range, dope elevation, spotter calls wind, dope windage, breath, fire.  Not only that but I don't have to rezero between shots.  For example I take a shot at called range of 300 yards (come up 5).  My next shot is now called at 450 yards.  Instead of rezeroing and then coming up 9 clicks I just come up 4 clicks from my last shot.  Fast and accurate enough on sils.  If you want to punch small holes then I agree this is not the scope for you.  But for HIT/MISS targets where time is a factor there's not much better IMO.
 
Having said that I believe I have settled on the SS 10x42 with side focus.  I tend to think in terms of MOA not MILS so the HD would take an extra mental conversion which uses "thirds" (roughly) per inch.  To me that's not very intuitive but if you're already thinking in MILS then why not.  So with .25 MOA I can somewhat keep the the calcs inline albeit with many more clicks/turns. The key to my decision was the custom dials I can get from Kenton (thanks Rancid Coolaid).  I still don't think it will be quite as fast because I'm going to have to look at the dial between shots instead of just counting clicks but for a third the price I'm willing to try it.  I can always pick up an M3 later if I can't make it work.
 
Merry Christmas to all and thanks for the help.
 
WB
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/24/2009 at 11:08
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You forgot to add into the equation the rifle itself.   Wink   Say it is only a rifle capable of consistent 1 MOA, which is actually pretty realistic for most rifles at longer ranges.  Suddenly your margin for error is now 20 inches at 1000 yards.  Then on top of all that if the shooter is only capable of shooting 1.5 MOA consistently then it is opened up to 30 inches at 1000 yards. 

As far as Mils and MOA the reason you feel like you would have a hard time is because you are thinking in inches instead of units of angular measurements.  In reality inches have nothing at all to do with it.  Once you get yourself to give that up it all makes more sense and becomes easier.  Especially if you have a scope that has matching reticle and adjustments.  There are no more conversions needing to be done, everything you need to do can be seen right there on your reticle.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/24/2009 at 16:56
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I can see why you'd like 1 MOA clicks for that sort of competition.  Nightforce can do 1 MOA clicks, but that doesn't help you much cost wise.  The Burriss 6-24 XTR  http://swfa.com/Burris-6-24x50-Xtreme-Tactical-XTR-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P10982.aspx is available with 1 MOA clicks.  I know nothing about the scope's repeatability/durability though.  Of course USO could do one for you.

Something that may be as helpful as 1 MOA clicks is simply a big knob so you're able to get to 1000 yds on the first turn of the dial, regardless of the click's size.  USO Erek is probably the cheapest you'll find on something like their ST-10.  IOR's 3-18, various S&B, Premier are others I can think of but they don't help price-wise much, the IOR probably being the cheapest.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/24/2009 at 17:17
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WB,

Read your last post repeatedly.  I dunno what to say............................... yeah I do;

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It'll be fun and you'll really learn to work the SS, it's a great choice.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/25/2009 at 00:42
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Originally posted by Mike McDonald Mike McDonald wrote:

There are fast long range shots, and accurate long range shots but there are no fast, accurate long range shots.




Excellent
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/25/2009 at 00:43
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Start with the side focus model but Im sure that some day you will want the HD and I doubt you will really want the M3 because you will go from there to wanting something really expensive.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2010 at 19:08
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Just an update...
 
I went ahead and ordered the 10x42HD based on the feedback on this forum.
 
Overall I like the scope.  Coming from MOA, the MIL/MIL is quite easy to get use to.  BEWARE... it will spoil you on MOA adjustments.  Optics are excellent quality.  Really good for this price range.
 
CONS on this scope are few but notable:
  1. No side focus adjustment.  I keep reaching for it and it's not there.
  2. I still don't like going beyond one revolution, however this is somewhat mitigated by not having to count clicks.  Maybe not really a con but personal preference.
  3. I really don't like the big gaps between the end focus and paralax rings and the way the lock ring locks with those crazy wavy knurls leaves additional space for debris to collect.  I'm 100% sure that they will fill with dirt and crud and will require frequent cleaning.  Which means I'll have to reset the focus more frequently then I believe should be necessary.  Hopefully it won't gum up the threads.
  4. The biggest CON on my particular scope is the windage knob.  The alignment is off by a full 1/2 click.  I cannot line up the knob and scope marks.  For $800 I would expect a good alignment here.   Elevation knob is fine.  Knob knurls are fine.  I can easily adjust with gloves/bare hands. 
  5. Mine came with no manual or warranty card (not sure if it was supposed to) and the edge of the elevation knob was poking through the plastic bag and the top of the white packaging SWFA box it was shipped in (no damage that I could discern but somewhat disconcerting).

I purchased this scope based on the reviews here and my own MIL/MIL curiosity.  Again I pretty happy with it.  But I'm not sure I shouldn't have purchased the new old stock M3 I found elsewhere for the same price.  Then again I wouldn't have experienced the joys of MIL/MIL Big Smile.

I would really like to see the rings re-designed.  The gaps are just too big.  Moving the focus to the side and going to a single ring without the crazy wavy knurls would fix this.  At any rate, I'm looking forward to wringing this thing out at the range when the weather breaks.
 
Thanks again for all the help,
 
WB
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/26/2010 at 20:16
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Originally posted by WarmBore WarmBore wrote:

Just an update...
 
I went ahead and ordered the 10x42HD based on the feedback on this forum.
 
Overall I like the scope.  Coming from MOA, the MIL/MIL is quite easy to get use to.  BEWARE... it will spoil you on MOA adjustments.  Optics are excellent quality.  Really good for this price range.
 
CONS on this scope are few but notable:
  1. No side focus adjustment.  I keep reaching for it and it's not there.
  2. I still don't like going beyond one revolution, however this is somewhat mitigated by not having to count clicks.  Maybe not really a con but personal preference.
  3. I really don't like the big gaps between the end focus and paralax rings and the way the lock ring locks with those crazy wavy knurls leaves additional space for debris to collect.  I'm 100% sure that they will fill with dirt and crud and will require frequent cleaning.  Which means I'll have to reset the focus more frequently then I believe should be necessary.  Hopefully it won't gum up the threads.
  4. The biggest CON on my particular scope is the windage knob.  The alignment is off by a full 1/2 click.  I cannot line up the knob and scope marks.  For $800 I would expect a good alignment here.   Elevation knob is fine.  Knob knurls are fine.  I can easily adjust with gloves/bare hands. 
  5. Mine came with no manual or warranty card (not sure if it was supposed to) and the edge of the elevation knob was poking through the plastic bag and the top of the white packaging SWFA box it was shipped in (no damage that I could discern but somewhat disconcerting).

I purchased this scope based on the reviews here and my own MIL/MIL curiosity.  Again I pretty happy with it.  But I'm not sure I shouldn't have purchased the new old stock M3 I found elsewhere for the same price.  Then again I wouldn't have experienced the joys of MIL/MIL Big Smile.

I would really like to see the rings re-designed.  The gaps are just too big.  Moving the focus to the side and going to a single ring without the crazy wavy knurls would fix this.  At any rate, I'm looking forward to wringing this thing out at the range when the weather breaks.
 
Thanks again for all the help,
 
WB


let me know how it works for you. i am really wanting to get this scope for my rifle. and would like to know if it is worth it
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