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Alternative to Vortex PST 6-24 FFP ???

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2011 at 10:09
natchamp View Drop Down
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Gents,

I need some help and guidance.  I am trying to decide which scope to get for a new rifle I am putting together.  I have been planning on getting the Vortex PST 6-24 FFP but they still aren’t going to be available for at least 2-3 more months.  I can’t wait that long.  The way I see it, I can either buy a low-cost scope to use until the Vortex is available or look for an alternative to the Vortex.  I am open to either route depending on what my research tells me.

Application

6mmAR chambered AR15 which is a 6.5 grendel round necked down to 6mm.  The ballistics provide a better/longer range than the typical .223.  I plan on using it in local varmint competition matches which shoot from 200-600 yards.  I will probably shoot longer distances for fun but the 200- 600 yards is the predominant distance.  According to Berger’s ballistic program and shooting 105gn BT’s at @ 2800 fps I should be seeing @ 89” of drop at the 600 yard point.  That equates to a range-of-adjustment requirement of @ 15 MOA’s.

Budget – I can spend @ 1k for an alternative or @ 300 for an interim.

Features I’m looking for

FFP if possible in this price range. 

Zero-stop or some type of tactical style (externally adjustable turrets).  I want the ability to quickly adjust the scope to the different yardage settings of my log book.  If the settings from the shortest distance to longest is more than one revolution then some type of “level” on the turrets (like Nightforce has).

At least 24 power, if not 32. 

MOA (not MIL)

So, given all of that, what else should I be looking at as an alternative to the PST?  I've read good things about the Weavers but I don't think their power goes up to 24 or 32?  Obviously Nightforce is an option but it's just out of my price range.  Any help and guidance is much appreciated.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2011 at 10:23
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Chief Sackscratch

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I know these are not FFP but these are good picks.  (why do you want FFP and MOA?)
If you could settle at 20X this would be my top pick
Zeiss 6.5-20x50 Conquest Rifle Scope Rapid Z Varmint Zeiss 6.5-20x50 Conquest Rifle Scope
Stock # - ZEI5214509975
  • Matte
  • Rapid Z Varmint
  • 1"
  • Side Focus
  • Target Knobs
  • Etched Glass
  • 2nd Plane
$1,074.95 
Add Zeiss 6.5-20x50 Conquest Rifle Scope to Cart
More Details »

Optional Accessories:

There are even a few on  www.Samplelist.com that you can save on.
 
Minox have been aruged to have Conquest level glass at a cheaper price and are worth a look too
 
Minox 6-30x56 ZA5 30mm Riflescope Minox 6-30x56 ZA5 30mm Riflescope
Stock # - MIN66300
  • Matte
  • Mino-Plex
  • 30mm
  • Side Focus
$798.95 
Other good options
Sightron 6-24x50 SIII 30mm Riflescope Sightron 6-24x50 SIII 30mm Riflescope
Stock # - SIIISS624X50LRMOA
  • Matte
  • MOA-2
  • 30mm
  • Side Focus
  • 1/4 MOA Tactical Knobs
$869.95 
http://swfa.com/Sightron-SIII-Riflescopes-C176.aspx
They even have it with a target dot
Sightron 6-24x50 SIII 30mm Riflescope Dot Sightron 6-24x50 SIII 30mm Riflescope
Stock # - SIIISS624X50LRD
  • Matte
  • Dot
  • 30mm
  • Side Focus
  • 1/4 MOA Target Knobs
$805.90 
Add Sightron 6-24x50 SIII 30mm Riflescope to Cart
More Details »

Optional Accessories:
  • Butler Creek Lens Caps Kit - ($15.95)
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2011 at 10:25
supertool73 View Drop Down
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I would go Sightron S3
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2011 at 13:41
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Optics GrassHopper
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Thanks guys, I'll check them out.  I want FFP so I can retain POA/POI throughout the zoom range.  I want MOA because my feeble brain can  understand it.
 
I guess it's going to be hard to meet the criteria.
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2011 at 13:52
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Chief Sackscratch

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Originally posted by natchamp natchamp wrote:

Thanks guys, I'll check them out.  I want FFP so I can retain POA/POI throughout the zoom range.  I want MOA because my feeble brain can  understand it.
 
I guess it's going to be hard to meet the criteria.
 
You may be misinformed but thats not what FFP does, granted most scopes that have FFP are quality enought they don't have shift but a good SFP scope should not have a POI change on the different magnification levels.  FFP keeps the reticle teh same size in relation to the target on all powers. Used mainly for ranging with some sort or mil-dot style reticle (or other range finding reticle)  I dont think you'd want a FFP for what your doing, but I've been wrong before, I thinkWink
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2011 at 13:57
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Chief Sackscratch

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Originally posted by jonoMT jonoMT wrote:

  1. An FFP scope has a reticle that changes size with magnification. The advantage of this is that with a reticle with subtensions, such as a mil-dot reticle, the subtensions (distance between markings) are always relative to the target size. In other words, if 2 mils covers the target @ 10X, 2 mils cover the target @ 5X. With an SFP scope, the reticle never changes size so zooming out to 5X would mean 2 mils would only cover half the target. The disadvantage of a reticle that changes size is that the hash marks (and sometimes the reticle lines) get hard to see at low magnification. However, most manufacturers allow for this by including thicker outer bars so that at low mag the scope functions like a typical duplex reticle.

    Another advantage because of the subtensions always remaining relative to the target size is that no matter what the magnification is you can adjust the scope or the turrets based on what you see through the reticle. If you see that your shot was 2 mils to the left you can either move the scope over 2 mils to the right or dial in 2 mils of correction. This can be done on an SFP scope, but only on its ranging power.

  (from http://www.opticstalk.com/ffp-mil-mil-moa-mrad_topic28563_post406364.html#406364)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2011 at 14:13
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Thanks for that info, maybe I'm wrong in my full understanding of FFP.  That's why I'm here....to learn!  I was aware of the reticle staying the same size to the target through its zoom range (ie; the cross hairs get bigger at higher zooms). 
 
However, my other understanding was that on RFP scopes the accuracy of POA relative to POI was only good (and stays intact) at whatever zoom range to zero it in at, mostly done at the highest setting.  And the FFP scopes retain the relationship between POA/POI throughout the zoom range.
 
Let's put this in real world terms so I make sure I'm understanding correctly cause it sounds like I'm wrong.  The way I currently understand it is:
 
1) If I have a RFP 8x32 scope that is hitting my target perfectly at 300 yards while on 32 zoom.  If I change the zoom to 8 then my shots wont be accurate because the relationship between POA/POI are only good (zero'd) at the 32 zoom.
 
2) If I have a FFP 8x32 scope and the same scenario, when I reduce the zoom to 8 my shots will still be accurate because the relationship between POA and POI is still true.
 
So, am I all wrong here?  It sounds like from what you are saying a good quality RFP scope will accomodate #2 above.  My intended use does not included using the reticle for determining target distance so if I am wrong then a good quality RFP scope should do me just fine?
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2011 at 14:21
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What your thinking about is the subtentions being only correct on one power on variable power scopes for ranging when you talk about the only right on highest setting and even then its not always the highest.
 
As for 1&2, yes you are wrong here.  Again a quality scope will not have a POI change when going from one power to another.  A Second focal plane scope will be fine for what you are doing and probably the more common of whats being use in what your doing. 
 
 


Edited by SVT_Tactical - April/26/2011 at 14:55
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2011 at 14:23
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Yes, a good quality SFP scope will do you fine.  The above Sightron looks to be the clear winner for your wants.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2011 at 14:26
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The sightron is a graet scope.  But the Minox is grossly underpriced for the quality you get (acording to those who use them), so it'd be between those two for me.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2011 at 14:49
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Originally posted by natchamp natchamp wrote:

Thanks for that info, maybe I'm wrong in my full understanding of FFP.  That's why I'm here....to learn!  I was aware of the reticle staying the same size to the target through its zoom range (ie; the cross hairs get bigger at higher zooms). 
 
However, my other understanding was that on RFP scopes the accuracy of POA relative to POI was only good (and stays intact) at whatever zoom range to zero it in at, mostly done at the highest setting.  And the FFP scopes retain the relationship between POA/POI throughout the zoom range.
 
Let's put this in real world terms so I make sure I'm understanding correctly cause it sounds like I'm wrong.  The way I currently understand it is:
 
1) If I have a RFP 8x32 scope that is hitting my target perfectly at 300 yards while on 32 zoom.  If I change the zoom to 8 then my shots wont be accurate because the relationship between POA/POI are only good (zero'd) at the 32 zoom.
 
2) If I have a FFP 8x32 scope and the same scenario, when I reduce the zoom to 8 my shots will still be accurate because the relationship between POA and POI is still true.
 
So, am I all wrong here?  It sounds like from what you are saying a good quality RFP scope will accomodate #2 above.  My intended use does not included using the reticle for determining target distance so if I am wrong then a good quality RFP scope should do me just fine?
 


I think what you may be refering to are scopes with holdover reticles in the SFP or SFP mil dot scopes. The aiming points on a scope with a holdover reticle are usually calibrated at the highest magnification. With a little work you can extrapolate where they are at other power settings but the mental gymnastics can start to get confusing. With a SFP mil dot scope the mil dots are usually accurate at a given power which will be marked on the scope. On many SFP scopes it is 12X so you can quickly determine that at 6x they are equal to 2 mils and at 24x they are equal to 1/2 mil. In a FFP Scope 1 mil is 1 mil regardless of the power setting used. In any case the center of the crosshair is constant regardless of the power setting or type of reticle used and any shift in POI is strictly a mechanical fault rather than a magnification variable.


Edited by biggreen747 - April/26/2011 at 14:55
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2011 at 14:55
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This is all great information, and much appreciated!  How about some feedback on my zoom range requirements?  I was originally shooting for a 6x24 zoom and now looking at 8x32's.  What I don't know is what's appropriate and adequate for my intended use. My thinking is that since I definately want to go out to 600 yards (and further sometimes) the 8x32 might suite me better.  My old eyes aren't what they used to be so I need all the help I can get.
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2011 at 14:58
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Good glass will trump magnification all day long.  I think our initial 6-24 is fine as long as you spend the money to get good glass.  All the ones mentioned above shoud suffice and do you well
 
IF you want to learn even more check out www.opticsthoughts.com  Specifically down towards the bottom of this page to learn more about FFP vs SFP and applications for each
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2011 at 15:06
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32x is a lot, but you can always turn it down.  You cannot turn 24x up to 32x if you need it.  If your only use is going to be very small targets at longer distances then I don't see the problem with the 8-32x.

Realistically though mirage can start getting pretty sever once you hit 16x and above.

I am not a fan of high mag scopes at all, but if all your use is 200 yards and out, you might like the extra mag at times.

I would still get teh Sightron though, they do have pretty good glass and with as high a mags as you are wanting you will want the best glass you can afford.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2011 at 15:07
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That's a tougher call as a-lot of it is personal preference, and to some extent local atmospheric conditions. I am really averse to mirage so I tend to stay away from really high power as I generally find myself dialing it back down anyway. Even my varmint rigs have no more than 16X but that is just me. If you have the opportunity to look through others high mag scopes at the range by all means do so. You can get a feel for whether or not you like the really high magnification. Keep in mind that the higher you go in magnification the more you will want to spend on a scope. The lower priced high mag scopes are generally quite poor in the upper half of the mag range. Personally I don't feel you need much more than 16X if even that at 500-600 yds. 16X at 600yds is equivalent to 37.5 yds with no magnification.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/02/2011 at 00:34
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A wait for the SS 5-20HD it is coming soon...

I would think this is a great alternative...
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