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Alternative to Trijicon TR20-2G?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/29/2009 at 16:58
azsixshooter View Drop Down
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I was wondering if there is anything out there like the Trijicon TR20-2G? I have one on order, it's taking forever and the most recent baseless guess is "we don't really know but maybe by the end of June". I'm getting frustrated and wanted to start thinking about some alternatives.

I like that the TR20-2G has decent glass, mil-dot reticle for backup ranging and the battery-free illuminated dot. If there's anything competitive out there I'd like to hear about it. I won't consider anything with lesser glass or illumination that requires batteries.

Thanks for any ideas.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/29/2009 at 17:11
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OK  you picked the green one with mil-dot.  You do know that the green is the NEW color so that is  your delay. If you called SWFA and asked  - What Ya Got in an Accupoint -  you could select from models in stock.  In an Accupoint I prefer the post triangle as it will do Bindon aiming concept - draw the eye quickly to the target where the illuminated mil dot crosshair and #4 will not.  Likely you could find an amber mil-dot in either a 3-9 or a 2.5-10x56.  As for something that does not use batteries that is illuminated Trijicon is the only show in town.  If you want to give us info on what it will go on and how it will be used we might be able to make other suggestions.

TR222 Trijicon 2.5-10x56 Accu-Point 30mm Rifle Scope                                                                          Trijicon 2.5-10x56 Accu-Point 30mm Rifle Scope
  • Matte
  • Mil-Dot Crosshair w/ Amber Dot
  • 30mm
SWFA: $806.95
More Info... Buy Now

TR222G Trijicon 2.5-10x56 Accu-Point 30mm Rifle Scope                                                                          Trijicon 2.5-10x56 Accu-Point 30mm Rifle Scope
  • Matte
  • Mil-Dot Crosshair w/ Green Dot
  • 30mm
SWFA: $806.95
More Info... Buy Now

TR202 Trijicon 3-9x40 Accu-Point Rifle Scope                                                                                  Trijicon 3-9x40 Accu-Point Rifle Scope
  • Matte
  • Mil-Dot Crosshair w/ Amber Dot
  • 1"
SWFA: $678.95
More Info... Buy Now
TR232 Trijicon 5-20x50 Accu-Point 30mm Rifle Scope                                                                            Trijicon 5-20x50 Accu-Point 30mm Rifle Scope
  • Matte
  • Mil-Dot Crosshair w/ Amber Dot
  • 30mm
  • Free Sun Shade
SWFA: $1,019.95
More Info... Buy Now
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/29/2009 at 17:40
azsixshooter View Drop Down
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It's going on my CZ550 American in 6.5x55 Swedish. Primarily a rifle I bought for antelope hunting, I'll be using it for my bull elk hunt this winter. Since I got it originally for antelope and possible longer shots I like the idea of the mil-dot reticle. Since I'm going to be using it on this bull hunt in a unit full of huge, dark canyons and drainages I like the illuminated dot and on my bow I have always noticed that the green fiber sight looks bright after the yellow and red have gone dim. I've since learned that is because the human eye has twice the receptors or something for seeing light in the green spectrum.

I'll be in love with this scope if I ever get it. I'm going to wait at least until the end of June to see if they ship it before then. I've already been waiting patiently for 2 months now. I'm just sick of getting the run-around about when it will arrive.

I was thinking there was more competition out there for battery-free illuminated reticles. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/29/2009 at 21:54
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Trijicon is it
if you want a fixed power, say 4x you could do an Acog

I just got the 3-9x40 Accupoint with the amber triangle and am extremely impressed with it


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/29/2009 at 22:46
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azsixshooter, Just checked, my dist has two in stock with the MD/amber dot (which I personally prefer), I can have it shipped on Mon and to you late next week or early the following for $590. delivered.

Advise if your interested?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/29/2009 at 23:01
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Wow, Mr. Wilson, I sure appreciate that offer.

That is very generous of you, but I gave the company I placed the order with my word that I would leave my order standing with them until the end of June and I want to at least give them one more chance.

If it hasn't shipped by then I will certainly consider going with an alternate color dot or scope.

Someday I hope to buy one of those .460 Rowlands from you too! You do such nice work, it's an honor to make your acquaintance, even if only in the cyber world. Thanks again for your kind offer.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/29/2009 at 23:04
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Bill I dont think he wants the amber as much as the green and they should be out really soon so he might as well wait for what he wants.  I'm waiting for a scope myself and I know it can be really frustrating.   By the way Bill have you ever seen one of the 1911s that was customised by Steve Velchoff who was a gunsmith in San Antonio in the 80s he did some interesting things to it to alter the lockup. I should send you some photos of it.  Best 1911's I've ever come across.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/31/2009 at 10:18
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Green is already out, I have 3 of them with green dot

1-4x24, 3-9x40 and 2.5-10x56, but I also have another 3-9x40 with amber dot and I personally like it the best and wish all of them were amber. Green seems to be the easiest to see in daylight unless your looking into green folage, but I only care about it for low light/dark conditions. Both are great and the dot is a VERY big improvement over the triangle.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/31/2009 at 10:55
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My friend in Idaho has an amber dot accupoint on an AR15, he sent me this pic of it trained on an apple in broad daylight. I think it stands out pretty well considering it's on a red apple. I mainly just wanted the greed dot because of my experience with the fiber sights on my bow. I figured I can always dim the dot down nearly as much as I want too, but you can only crank it up as bright as what the ambient light will allow. I know that tritium has a half-life of roughly 12 years so my reasoning is that in 12 years when the tritium is only glowing half as bright as it originally did I'll appreciate the green dot since my eyes have twice the amount of photorecptors for the green light spectrum. I know, I know, you can have Trijicon install new tritium in 12 years, but even that costs money and what if they aren't around then for any reason? That's just my reasoning for liking the green over red, yellow, amber, etc.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2009 at 11:37
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interesting to hear your take on the color

I can't imaging needing anyting brighter than the amber in the 3-9x40 I have


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2009 at 12:57
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It's not _my_ take on it, it is scientific fact. From Trijicon's own faq page:

"» 02. What is Tritium?     Tritium is a radioactive isotope of hydrogen. It is an odorless, tasteless, colorless gas that reacts with the human body in the same manner as natural hydrogen. Beta rays from the tritium hit phosphors to create the glow you see. Tritium has a half-life of 12.5 years, which means that in that time the lamp will be half as bright as it originally was."

If you take two illuminated reticles with equally depleted tritium green will appear brighter to your eye:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RGB_color_model
"The difference in the signals received from the three kinds allows the brain to differentiate a wide gamut of different colors, while being most sensitive (overall) to yellowish-green light and to differences between hues in the green-to-orange region."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color#Color_in_the_eye
"One of them (sometimes called long-wavelength cones, L cones, or, misleadingly, red cones) is most sensitive to light we perceive as yellowish-green, with wavelengths around 564 nm; the other type (sometimes called middle-wavelength cones, M cones, or, misleadingly, green cones) is most sensitive to light perceived as green, with wavelengths around 534 nm."

I guess you could say I'm being pedantic, but I personally feel that doing my homework and getting the best value possible is a worthwhile endeavor. I also want the re-sale value to be as high as possible.

Maybe it doesn't matter, I don't know how bright the dot is in near-dark with wide-open fiber sights. I have experienced the differences firsthand with what my bow does with its' fiber sights and IMHO having the green over the red or yellow is very beneficial for that last minute of legal light shooting opportunity. And what about night-hunting for preds under a full moon? Or a partially full moon? Starlight? I like the idea of my eyes (and their extra green-spectrum photoreceptors) seeing green brighter for longer under less light. It might not ever matter and in many cases I don't choose to split hairs with things like this. I'm just kind of poor and this is the most expensive scope I've ever bought so I will feel better holding out for the green dot.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2009 at 14:34
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get what you want then!

I can safely say you could easily shoot deer WELL past legal shooting times with any of their scopes..

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/02/2009 at 01:27
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Shall we compromise and go red ?  Devil
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/26/2009 at 22:49
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I finally got my TR20-2G today. I don't know if I'm going to keep it or try to get my money back and put it towards something else. I'm just not all that impressed with the luminosity of the aiming point. It was bright when I went outside and the fiber optics kicked in. However when sitting in my living room with a lamp right next to me (25 watt dim bulb) I point it towards the kitchen and the dot is so faint I can barely see it. Even when I went in the bathroom and closed the door and turned off the light I can hardly see the dot at all. It's like a very, very faint little fleck. I don't think there's any defect with the scope as it says right in the manual that the dot is extremely faint under low-light/tritium-only power; that you even might need to give your eyes a couple of minutes to adapt to the dark until you can see it at all.

I might get used to it and it might grow on me but I don't know. I paid $695 for this scope and my first impression (after waiting for 3 months) has been a resounding..."meh". I'm actually more impressed with the packaging, the box has a magnetic flap and nice logo design. I guess the glass is alright, I took it outside and zoomed in at 9 power at a mountain about a mile away or so. It looked alright. I just keep thinking I could get a better traditional scope without an illuminated reticle. Maybe a Leupold IV or something along those lines. Like I said, I'm not sure one way or another yet but I really expected the dot to be brighter in the dim-to-dark conditions. That's why I waited all this time and spent the extra money for the green dot. Oh well, I'm sure SWFA will take care of me either way...their customer service was very good the last 3 months and they shipped this scope as soon as it got to their door from Trijicon.

One other thing I'll relate here is from the warranty, it only covers the original purchaser and I think you might have to register with them to get that. No problem for me, but I think a warranty like Leupolds will boost the resale value. Something to keep in mind if you are considering buying a used Trijicon Accupoint scope. I'm not trying to knock Trijicon or anything, maybe I just don't have the eye to appreciate this scope or something but I was expecting to be "wowed" and so far I'm not. The dot is very bright outside when it's bright and I'm in sunlight, but that's not when I expect to really need an illuminated reticle. I was hoping it would really jump out in the dim light. Time for bed, I'll check it out more tomorrow at work.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2009 at 03:15
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Let us know how it goes, myself Im really curious ,having never looked through one. Ive been curious about the red arrow 3x9x40 really. There is nowhere to look at them around here at all.Sharp Shooter
 
 
J.........
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2009 at 07:37
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The tritium dot isn't very bright , but bright enough for night hunting. I'm having trouble getting the things to hold zero, watch this and let us know how it works out?
 
Really good idea if they would just brighten the dot up some and get them to hold zero like a Bushnell 4200 or higher end Leupold..........................
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2009 at 19:11
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I've been looking at all kinds of things through this scope today while here at work and so far I've come to a few conclusions.

-The green dot doesn't show up at all in certain dim conditions. I think it's a combination of the weakness of the dot and the ambient light erasing any contrast that you might get from the tritium power. The crosshairs however do show up under this condition so the scope is still usable. This condition was indoors with nothing but dim lighting. I was in a dark spot of a warehouse pointing the scope across an area lit with overhead fluorescent lighting at a dark corner about 15 yards away. I was not able to detect any glowing at all though I could make out the crosshairs and would be able to line up a shot (exactly as I would be able to do with any quality traditional, non-illuminated scope);

-The green dot looks pretty good in shaded areas outside provided there is the right amount of ambient light to power the fiber-optics. Earlier this morning I was outside around 6:30am. I was in the shadow of the building I work in on its' west side. I was aiming the scope at another object 100 yards away that was also in the shadow of the building. The dot looked okay as far as brightness goes, but the sky above me was bright blue. I would say this condition would approximate the time shortly after dawn in a well-wooded setting when the sky is getting pretty bright but before direct sun is coming from above;

-At around noon I was outside with the bright Arizona summer sun above me. The dot looked awesome with the fiber optic shroud wide open. I used the scope at various magnifications to glass buildings and surroundings from laser-ranged 100, 200, 300 and 1100 yard distances. I was also glassing a mountain an estimated 2200+ yds distant. Everything looked good, nice field of view and eye relief across all magnification levels. On the distant mountain there is a neighborhood on the opposite side and one house is set right up at the top of the hill. I was able to see the roof of the house and the tops of some of the windows while the lower portion of the house was not in view. I was pretty impressed with that, I knew there were houses on the other side of the hill, but I had never seen that one at the top before despite having glassed that hill and the surrounding hills before with my Nikon 10x42 Monarchs. While under bright light I aimed the scope at things that were far away and in dark shadows. In my opinion, this is where this reticle really stands out. The shadows I was aiming into really obscured the crosshairs (being dark-on-dark) but the brightly glowing green dot stood out perfectly. I imagine being up in the open grasslands and lining up a shot on a mulie or a pronghorn hidden under the shadow of a tree with this scope under these kinds of conditions;

-In an absolutely blacked out room where I can't see my hand in front of my face I let my eyes adapt for 3 minutes. After that I looked through the scope and could just vaguely see a tiny fleck of dim green. Just barely visible. I can't imagine hunting anything under conditions like that and I am aware that the human eye supposedly takes longer, something like 30 minutes, to fully adapt to complete darkness so maybe if I gave it more time it would look a little brighter. I went outside last night and looked at the moon with the scope. Couldn't see the green dot at all, but I was able to make out all the lunar features very well. I am curious how the dot would look out in the desert under a full moon. I bet it would be plenty bright enough to power the fiber optics pretty well;

I guess that's about the extent of my testing, just thought I would relate it here for the benefit of anyone else considering this scope. I'm still not sure if I'm going to keep it or not, but I looked around at my options and didn't see too much at this price point that made me think it would be worth it to go through the hassle of sending it back yet. I think if I wanted to get something that would stand head and shoulders above the quality of the glass in this scope I would probably have to cough up $1000 or better and get something like a Swarovski. I am thinking about getting a refund on this one and picking up a Nikon 4-16x42 Monarch with the mil-dot reticle. I would be saving a couple hundred dollars and I think the only thing I'd lose would be the illuminated dot which doesn't really work under really dim conditions anyway, such as a dark, ponderosa pine-canopied canyon at dusk or dawn. I might even be getting better glass/coatings with the Nikon and after reading some of the posts on this forum about failing Trijicon scopes, shoddy Trijicon repair service and Accupoints not holding zero I'm strongly considering dumping it for a Monarch. I've got a Nikon Prostaff on this rifle now that I'm happy with and I love my Nikon Monarch binos. I haven't had any trouble whatsoever with this $150 Prostaff keeping zero and I haven't ever heard anything bad about Nikon's repair service.

I'm doing some volunteer work for the AZ Citizen's Defense League at a gun show tomorrow so I think I will take it up there and get some more opinions on it and possibly compare it side-to-side with some other glass. I might also head up to the area I'll be elk hunting in this winter and see how the dot actually fares in some of those canyons during prime hunting times. I'm off Sun, Mon, Tues and Wed this week so I could probably run up there for a couple of days to test it out in the field and still be within the 10 day return period. I will see what SWFA says on Monday as to what exact day I would have to return it by in order to receive a full refund.

Sorry for the lengthy posts, just wanted to be thorough and as fair as possible. I like that Trijicon is an American company (especially since I am from Michigan and have actually lived in Wixom) but I am thinking this scope is a bit overpriced. I feel like I paid $700 for a $500 scope with a gimicky green dot. Again..."meh" :-)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2009 at 21:19
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How is it working for you on the range and in the woods as a hunting optic.  The #4 the duplex and the mil dot are rather small illuminated areas where the triangle on post and other reticles that have more illuminated area & do stand out more and will work with the bindon aiming concept where the duplex mildot and #4 dont.  My first look at the 3-9x40 left me thinking it wasnt all that bright also but it really is enough to pick up the point of aim on a target. I tend to prefer the triangle on post and the chevron reticles.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2009 at 21:59
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I was thinking that the BAC post triangle looked like it had a larger illuminated area and probably would stand out better. You are right, I've been looking through it more here at home in dark conditions and I'm finding that even though I can barely see the green speck it does stand out enough on pitch black objects good enough to take a well-aimed shot when you might not otherwise be able too. Here's the example that came to my mind...say you're in a dark canyon and there is a black bear in a heavily shaded area. A traditional scope/reticle might disappear not allowing you to make a well-aimed shot. I think that even with the extremely low luminosity of the tritium dot it would be enough that you could take the shot with confidence knowing that you're on target to slip one in the vitals.

I'm kind of still shopping around, but this scope is growing on me the more I look through it under dark conditions. At least here around town, I haven't mounted it on my rifle yet. I don't want to scratch it up or anything in case I decide to send it back for a refund.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2009 at 22:46
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first off, your avatar is highly distracting


I have owned numerous ill ret scopes for night time hog hunting

I have found that anything that's easily visible is too bright and distracting for actual night time use....

I have a Tr20 with an Amber triangle, it's very visible... used it yesterday to bag to hogs in the late afternoon

there's a trick if you REALLY think you need it brighter is to use a small light, like a red led hat mounted clip on light that will definitely help make the fiber optic brighter

someone out there has some little cyalume light sticks you can stick on the scope
can't recall where I saw them, but they aren't needed
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/28/2009 at 08:25
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Those are good tips, thanks for sharing those ideas. If I was planning on rifle hunting elk in the timber country frequently I would probably get a dedicated elk rifle (338-06, 35 Whelen, etc) and put a BAC post reticle scope on it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/28/2009 at 12:14
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You might want to look at this for a hunting scope.

http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-3-9x42-Tactical-Riflescope-P41044.aspx

Very good glass and priced right
Duce Smile
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/28/2009 at 12:42
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Hi, azsixshooter!
I don't have any experience with Trijicon's small dot reticles, other than seeing them inside stores, but I've always found the BAC post / triangle reticles to be more than visible enough in all lighting conditions.  So, I tend to agree with the comments that perhaps it's an issue with the size of the dot rather than the illumination system itself.

Regardless, as ccoker noted, it's actually better if an illuminated reticle is fairly dim in very low light or darkness, because if you have too much illumination, it will flare out your target too much and cause your iris to close some, hurting your night vision.  I use lit reticle scopes frequently, and I want the reticle to be just bright enough to see and no more in low light.  I don't want anything to interfere with my ability to see my target through the scope.  All the illumination has to do is provide just enough contrast on the target to see my aiming point, nothing more.


Edited by RifleDude - June/28/2009 at 12:43
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/28/2009 at 23:42
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I took it to the gun show today and everyone I showed it to liked it. It kind of just keeps growing on me and I am starting to see more and more what you guys mean about how it doesn't need to be really bright to be effective. I finally mounted it on my rifle so I'll get it sighted in up at the range on Wednesday and see how it works up in my hunting unit over the next few weeks. I still wish the dot was slightly brighter, but maybe my opinion on that will change after actually hunting with it in the field. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/14/2009 at 23:28
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So any more news about the Trijicon 3x9. How are you liking it now?
 
I looked at the 2.5x10x56 at Cabela's over the weekend and was very impressed with the clarity of the scope, it was beautiful! Even my wife liked it. I would not mind having the 5x20x50 with the red arrow. Its awfully big for what I do but at least you can dial in with the turrets....That Huge 56 MM lense on the one at cabela's was just to darn big for me though....
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