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advice on 30mm vs 1" tubes, pls help!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/09/2004 at 08:34
newshooter View Drop Down
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Optics experts,

      A friend of mine who shoots competitely told me months ago to NEVER buy a 1" tube scope.  Something about how u can't use them at distances greater than 500yds.  He wuz angry because his rifle (A sendero) was capable of sub moa accuracy, but his scope was NOT. I can't remember WHY though???

 

 

Can u guys shed some light on this, as well as tell me the difference between 30mm and 1",  and SHOULD i only look at 30mm scopes???

 

P.S I am a new HUNTER/SHOOTER and am buying a rifle chambered in .300 wby and I plan to shoot long distances in case this helps

 

thanx guys

 

newshooter

 



Edited by newshooter
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/09/2004 at 08:57
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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Swfa has a post by Chris on this, that hits the point pretty well search the posts. 30mm tube were early euro models built by hand and needed to be larger. Any high quality 1" scope can shoot sub min groups if the loads are reloads and the gun is up to it.1" scopes sit lower on the gun and to me, are more "attractive". Generally 30 mm tubes just aren't necessary in probability a lot of 30 mm tubes probably have 1'' innards.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/09/2004 at 09:04
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Thank you Dale, I will search the posts as you suggest.  My friend (the competition shooter) said something about 1" tubes not being accurate past 500yds, or SOMETHING like that..........I am out of touch with him now or i would call him and ask.  I just remember him saying "ONLY BUY A 30MM SCOPE."   And i DEFINEATELY don't want to put the WRONG scope on the rifle i am getting (an Ed Brown custom Savanahh in .300 wby !!!!!)

 

thanx again 4 your help.

 

newshooter

 



Edited by newshooter
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/09/2004 at 10:39
tbone1 View Drop Down
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Newshooter,  if you need a scope for long range shooting then you would probably be better off with a 30mm tube.  Normally a 30mm tube allows for more adjustment range than a 1".  A good 30mm should be able to dial up to 1000 yards where a 1" might not.  1" scopes are accurate and most of the time have plenty of adjustment range, but you could run out depending on the model and how far you were planning to shoot.  I would ltake a look at the Leupold Mark 4 scopes.  They will have more than enough adjustment and are designed for long range work.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/09/2004 at 10:50
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Also look at the Leupold VXIII long range, and maybe a similar scope from burris.  What power and objective size are you considering?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/09/2004 at 11:05
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Here's the post Dale mentions and a link to more discussions about 30mm and 1".

http://www.opticstalk.com/search.asp?KW=30mm&SM=1&SI =TC&FM=2&OB=1

------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------

 

30mm scopes were first made in Europe years and years ago for two reasons.

1. Everything was done by hand and a large tube was needed to be able to build the scope.
2. They are on the metric system.

When we started building scopes in the U.S. technology had advanced some and being on the Standard system we built our scopes with 1" tubes.

The German scopes were and are superior because they use better glass, better coatings and better craftsmanship. Most people assume that bigger is better and that must be the reason why German 30mm scopes are brighter. It did not take long for U.S. and Asian scope makers to catch on to this and start offering 30mm scopes. It worked for a while but more and more people are learning the truth with the advent of the Internet. When Leupold first offered a 30mm tube in a hunting scope, they named it the Euro. 30. A competitor dissected one and said, B.S. that scope has 1" guts with a 30mm tube. Leupold's spin doctors quickly changed the name of the new 30mm line of scopes to LR or Long Range and released press releases stating that this new line of scopes has 1" internals with a 30mm tube to allow for more elevation adjustments.

Bottom line is 30mm scopes are 30mm because of the Metric system, they can be brighter than a 1" scope with all other things being equal (# of internal lenses and diameter of objective especially) if the maker takes advantage of the larger internal lenses in a manner that manages the light better (cutting down on distortion and stray light loss).  30mm scopes are also stronger and usually heavier.  Biggest advantage is more internal adjustment travel for long range shooting.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/09/2004 at 12:15
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Thanx to everyone trying to help me!!!.  I am considering  3-12 X (something greater than 40).......any further advice would be GREATLY appreciated.

 

again, it is a custom rifle chambered for .300wby, 24inch barrel (not including the muzzle-break)......GUARANTEED to shoot 1.5inches at 200, and very well may do better, especially once i start handloading.

 

newshooter



Edited by newshooter
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2004 at 15:45
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what will you be shooting with this rifle??? for hunting, muzzle brakes arent fun at all, and can damage your ears very badly, and people get tired of putting muffs on when hunting. ever thought of either sucking up to the recoil of the 300 weatherby, which i dont find bad, or downsizing to a 308 win, which will be as accurate, if not more??

 

cory

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2004 at 21:01
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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Whether a scope can deliver depends on your loads, assuming your loads deliver, then time to blame the scope. As far as run out, it depends of course on the drop of the bullet I would be suprized if a flat shooter such as this one would "dial out" a 1" tube. Muzzle brakes cause the rifle to come straight back instead of a "natural rolloff" that a proper stock allows. While a significant amount of ejecta media is diverted, it is like getting slapped in the face, each and every time, at least to me anyway, I hope they work better for you.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/13/2006 at 22:48
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I am a new guy and wanted to throw some mud in the mix on 30mm vs 1" optics. I, also am no expert, but have emailed Burris and Leupold both about this.

 

Burris rep emailed me and said that the 30mm tube does allow more light to pass through because it is a larger diameter tube. Made sense to me. Example: More light will pass through a 10' diameter concrete culvert 10' long than a 2' diameter culvert 10' long. The problem is there really isn't that much difference b/w 1" and 30mm tubes. At least not for light to pass through.

 

I have read Burris's literature and own there scopes. They state that some of their Signature line have 65% larger internals than that of many other 1" scopes. It seems that larger internals do make a sifgnificant difference in the quality of the optical system. One look through a Fullfield II vs. a Signature Select will show that. However, the Fullfield II does have great optics.

 

Leupold rep (another fine scope manufacturer) emailed me and said that what made a 30mm different is it is stronger and allows for more internal adjustment. He added that the quality of the glass and optical system itself is what provides good low light performance.

 

I asked the Leupold rep another question regarding objective diameter sizes and there contribution to low light performance. He reiterated what he said before about the quality of the optical system and said that larger objectives are better served on higher magnification scopes. Again, made sense to me. It creates a larger exit pupil at higher magnifications making the scope more forgiving regarging eye placement.

 

One look through a Swaro 1" and a Swaro 30mm and you can tell the difference even inside the sporting goods store. One look through a  Busnell 4200 1" and a 30mm and you can tell a difference.

 

It might be a larger internal optical system that will fit inside a 30mm tube is what makes them better in low light, resolution, contrast and across the board. If they have 1" internals, then well, the answer is obvious.

 

I have also heard by more than one knowledgable person that the 30mm tubes designed in Europe are for twilight hunting which is common there and mostly illegal here, at least for most species.

 

30mm scopes are better in low light if they have the larger internals (and are of good quality), but not that much better. In my most objective efforts to learn the truth about this it seems that you get what you pay for, but in scope land the price/quality trade off begins to diminish beyond a certain point. In other words, when you get beyond a certain price point your getting less scope for each dollar you spend, but if your a serious hunter the price could be worth it.

 

I have bought and compared several scopes (Leupold, Zeiss, Swarovski, Nikon, Weaver, Tasco and others) at dusk and using Snellen Eye Charts in daylight. In low light, I have observed differences some being better than others, but not that much better among quality scopes. The differences I have seen are in field of view, clarity, brightness, true color reflection, accuracy and ease controls, ergonomics, durability, etc. Low light performence has been somewhat consistent between most of them.

 

Happy shooting !!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2006 at 14:03
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>>>

Burris rep emailed me and said that the 30mm tube does allow more light to pass through because it is a larger diameter tube. Made sense to me. Example: More light will pass through a 10' diameter concrete culvert 10' long than a 2' diameter culvert 10' long. The problem is there really isn't that much difference b/w 1" and 30mm tubes. At least not for light to pass through.

>>>

 

That's BS.  The diameter of the light beam inside the scope never reaches the diameter of the tube.  Your Burris rep is either ignorant or is trying to sell you a more expensive 30mm tubed scope.  Or (as is often the case) both.

 

>>>

Leupold rep (another fine scope manufacturer) emailed me and said that what made a 30mm different is it is stronger and allows for more internal adjustment. He added that the quality of the glass and optical system itself is what provides good low light performance

>>>

 

That's absolutely correct.

 

>>>

One look through a Swaro 1" and a Swaro 30mm and you can tell the difference even inside the sporting goods store.

>>>

 

Have not tried this, but I suspect that those two scopes have somewhat different optical systems.

 

>>>

One look through a  Busnell 4200 1" and a 30mm and you can tell a difference.

>>>

Tried this and could see no difference whatsoever.  I looked at Elite 4200 2.5-10x50 with 1"tube and Elite 4200 2.5-10x50 illuminated scope with 30mm tube.  To the best of my knowledge all Elite 4200 use the sam qualit galss and the same basic optical design. 

 

Generally, larger internal lenses can have an effect on resolution (perceived brightness is affected by this) since it is easier to minimize aberrations that way, but not on light transmission.  Light transmission is controlled solely by glass cutting and polishing, coating quality and optical system design.

 

ILya

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2006 at 21:52
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Koshkin,

 

Like I said no expert here, but I try to pay attention. If the internals (inner tube) inside a 30mm is larger than the inner tube of a 1", is it not possible for more light to pass through?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2006 at 00:10
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>>

Koshkin,

 

Like I said no expert here, but I try to pay attention. If the internals (inner tube) inside a 30mm is larger than the inner tube of a 1", is it not possible for more light to pass through?
>>


Nope.  The amount of light that gets in is controlled by the size of the objective lens.  Once it is inside the scope, the beam diameter never approaches anything near the size of the tube, at least at reasonably high magnifications it does not.  At low magnifications, some scopes have a certain amount of vignetting.  However, it makes no difference at low magnifications since the exit pupil is too large to be fully utilized by the eye.  For example a Bushnell Elite 4200 2.5-10x50 scope has exit pupil of 15mm at 2.5x and 5mm at 10x.  That means, that the scope utilizes 37.5mm of the objective lens at 2.5x magnification.  Since our eye can only dilate up to 7mm the fact that only a part of the objective lens is used is not perceptible.  This condition only occurs with low magnification/large objective lens variable scopes anyway.


ILya


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2006 at 12:03
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Like you said Koshkin, could it be that in the case of the European scopes vs. American scopes, they have significantly different optical systems which could allow for a slightly better image.  For example Swarovski AH vs. Swarovski PH, same glass but different optical system where as Zeiss VM/V 1" and Zeiss VM/V 30mm would have the same glass and AOS optical system and therefore a very similar image (and also a very similar price).

 

So in some cases the 30mm version is better due to a better optical system.  I think that it makes sense to put the top of the line optical system in a stronger 30mm tube. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2006 at 12:50
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I do not think it makes any difference from an optical system standpoint whether it is in a 1" tube or a 30mm tube.  Unless you are trying to pund nails with a scope (a fairly rare endeavor with a scope that costs over a grand) the strength of the tube is not all that different.  Better 1" scopes are made of some pretty strong alloys and there is not a whole lot of stress on the tube under normal operation.  This whole deal of 30mm tubes being stronger than 1" tube, while true, is blown a bit out of proportion.  It does not make a squat of difference for those of us who do not go into harm's way for a living.  Also, a lot depends on materials.  For example, a 30mm tube of regular aluminum is likely to be weaker than 1" tube of a decent Al/Ti alloy.  Then there is the heat treat quality.

 

Mechanical considerations are usually more important with tube size selection.  A 4x erector assembly is easier to fit in a 30mm tube while still maintaining decent W/E adjustment range.  For example IOR came out with a bunch of scopes that have a 6x erector but those are all in 35 tubes.  However, there some tricks that manufacturers play that help with this.  Good examples of that are reasonably inexpensice Weaver Grand Slam and SIghtron S2 scopes which maintain excellent W/E adjustment range and quality in 1" tubes. 

 

Anyhow, bottom line of all this is that we should choose scopes based on optical and mechanical performance and characteristics that matter to us.  The tube that it is in is pretty irrelevant (except for aesthtics of course).

 

ILya

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2006 at 17:08
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Most people aren't aware of this, but Leupold is a little sneaky when it comes to their 30mm scopes.  Those in the VX-III line that have 30mm tubes actually have 1" internals, so you aren't gaining half the benefits that a 30mm scope should offer.  Just another tid-bit...how many knew that Leupold uses reject Zeiss glass in their VX-II and higher lines, with the only difference being the lens coating?  The lower lines (Rifleman and VX-I) use glass that comes from Asia, hence the huge difference in optical clarity between the lower lines and the higher lines.  Bet you didn't know they don't even make their own tubes either?

Made in America?  Not quite, they're just assembled here.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2006 at 17:36
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>>how many knew that Leupold uses reject Zeiss glass in their VX-II and higher lines, with the only difference being the lens coating?>>

 

That's the first I've heard of this.  What is the source of this information? Also, what is meant by "reject Zeiss glass"?  Using the glass spec-ed out by Zeiss would imply that Leupold has identical optical design, lens size and shape, etc.

 

As for being assembled here, except for US Optics, every manufacturer claiming to be "Made in America" is actually just assembled here.  Burris, last I heard, machined their mechanicals here in the US, and perhaps did the coating work in Colorado (not by Burris themselves though).  Their lenses are ground and polished in Japan though (I think).

 

ILya

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Does anyone know the anser to this? At what point in a variable power rifle scope is the exit pupil size constricted to what is looked through at the oclar lense? Just inside the Objective? At the reticle lens on the inner tube? At the erector lenses? At the ocular lenses? Perhaps at various points or more than one point inside the scope?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2006 at 20:50
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Leupold uses "reject Zeiss glass" in some of there better lines of scopes. Thats sounds pretty far fetched. Any facts to back up that claim?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2006 at 23:48
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I would expect the constriction to occur upon the light beam entering into the erector lens system.

I could be wrong though.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/17/2006 at 02:16
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I won't give the name of the source, but will say he has worked for three of the most noted optic manufacturers in Europe, and is still with one of the best.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/10/2007 at 14:59
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Still sounds a little fishy.  Your source has worked for three of the most noted optic manufacturers in Europe... Does he have a hard time holding down a job?

 

Give us some shred of evidence to back up your claim.

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/11/2007 at 18:29
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"P.S I am a new HUNTER/SHOOTER and am buying a rifle chambered in .300 wby and I plan to shoot long distances in case this helps   "

 

A .300 WEATHERBY AND A CUSTOM RIFLE NO LESS!!!!   Well shoot me in the foot  Doesnt anyone think that a new shooter ought to start out with something that won't stomp the living sh.. out of them. How about a .308 or a 30-06 or even a .243 or 25-06 or 7mm-08, or a .270   Ok so now somebody lit this fellow up and sold him on a sore shoulder now lets hammer him and get him to buy a Leupold Mk4 as one guy suggested, why yes it is 30mm. The guy is a new shooter obviously after BIG game at LONG range. That in itself sounds like a problem fixing to happen. Lets use some reason here and pick either a 3-9 or 4.5-14 scope nothing more powerful - after all 1000 yds with open sights is done all the time with military rifles. Side note to NEW HUNTER when you start off try to limit your shots to about 200 yards you should be able to find a 200 yard range and sight in, Once you get out further wind, temperature, elevation, humidity, incline, will all do a little to change the path of your bullet even if you know the trajectory  of the particular load you are using. So be sneaky and walk closer 200 yds is about right. Buy a rangefinder. And now what you have been waiting for: here' s your scope:

  

LEU57170 Leupold 4.5-14x50 VX-III 30mm Riflescope                    Leupold 4.5-14x50 VX-III 30mm Riflescope
  • Matte
  • Varmint Hunters
  • 30mm
  • Long Range
  • Side Focus
  • Index Matched Lens System
SWFA: $769.95
More Info...

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/11/2007 at 18:48
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Why this one - simple so you have an idea what a 10 mph or 20 mph full value (at right angle) wind does.
 

Detail view of Leupold Varmint Hunter's Reticle

 

I can give you a 300 win mag chart but I dont have 300 wby its about 300 fps faster.

Federal Gold Medal Match .300 Winchester Magnum 190gr Sierra Match King at 2900fps

Bullet Drop (Inches)

100y

92m

200y

183m

300y

275m

400y

366m

500y

458m

600y

549m

700y

641m

800y

732m

900y

824m

1000y

915m

+12.9

+22.5

+26.9

+25.1

+16.4

Zero

-25.8

-63.0

-112.2

-175.6

Energy (Muzzle - 3550Ft.-Lbs)

3135

2760

2420

2115

1840

1595

1375

1185

1015

870

Wind Drift (Inches) 10mph Crosswind

0.6

2.4

5.5

10.1

16.4

24.2

34.2

46.6

61.1

78.0

 

 

try here http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ballistics/?url=%2Fballistics% 2F300_wby_mag.html&x=10&y=4



Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd
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