New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - A Super Sniper Question
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Check GunBroker.com for SWFA's No Reserve and No Minimum bid firearm auctions.

A Super Sniper Question

 Post Reply Post Reply   Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/01/2006 at 06:18
macky View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: February/20/2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 122

I have a Super Sniper SS10X42M on my AR-15.  I'm looking for an additional scope to put on a Savage .308 10FP LE2B (McMillan Stock)  I'm going to hopefully get over to the range later today and "refresh my memory" on the SS10X42M. 

 

After looking at a bunch of my options for a scope on the 308, most of my choices are more then I want to spend right now (most are like $700-$1100 ... I need a month or two to recover from the rifle and the 308 reloading stuff)  I'm leaning towards picking up a second SS so I don't have to "share" the SS10X42M between two guns.  I'm also leaning towards getting either the 16X or 20X ... reasons being that I'll then have two "different SS's to play with" AND I'd have some extra magnifcation for longer range "target" shooting  (Keep in mind that I am a paper puncher and don't really hunt all that much)

 

Assuming that the quality of the glass and the scope is the same in the entire line I'm basically left with these  differences (I think) with any of the scopes that I choose:

 

     Exit Eye Pupil, Eye Relief, and Light Transmission (Brightness)

 

Not having any experience with any of the SS's except the SS10X42M, I need some info from the people out there that have used the SS16X42 and the SS20X42.  Can anyone help me out ... how different are they?  How are they under different light levels?  How "fussy" is eye position on each?  I have a Bushnell Elite 4200 6-24X40 and it is real fussy on eye position at 24X .... even the SS20X42 should be better than that one.

 

Like I said .... any insight would be greatly appreciated .... I'm tending to think SS16X42 ... but the "numbers" on the SS20X42 aren't all that much worse than the 16X ...

 

Exit Pupil ...

 

SS10X42M

    42/10= 4.2

SS10X42

    42/10= 4.2

SS16X42

    42/16= 2.63

SS20X42

    42/20= 2.1

 

Twilight Performance ...

 

SS10X42M (or SS10X42)

             Relative Geometric Brightness = 4.2 squared = 17.64

Twilight Performance = the square root of 10X42 = the square root of 420 = 20.49

SS16X42

             Relative Geometric Brightness = 2.63 squared = 6.92

Twilight Performance = the square root of 16X42 = the square root of 672 = 25.92

SS20X42

             Relative Geometric Brightness = 2.1 squared = 4.41

Twilight Performance = the square root of 20X42 = the square root of 840 = 29.98

 

Specifications

Model:

SS10X42M

SS10X42

SS16X42

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/01/2006 at 20:24
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Resident Redneck

Joined: June/20/2005
Location: Iowa
Status: Offline
Points: 13868
Ok - I bought a SS 20x before I bought my 10x M and I will say there is a huge difference in lower light. You are OK as long as you are in bright daylight but the 20x goes grey earlier than I would like. I would be more inclined to say buy a second 10x M or buy and IOR 6x42 which should be even a little brighter in the evening. The only saving grace of my 8.5-25 Leupold Mark 4 is that I can run it down to 8.5 later in the evening. As for difference between 16 and 20 as long as you understand the limitations 20 will give you the higher magnification that you must like if you already have a 6-24. Set that one on 20 and you will have your answer.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/01/2006 at 21:20
Fla.Shooter View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


Joined: July/01/2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 29
Macky,I have A savage 30-6.I was thinking about changing to A MCMillan stock.Was it A good fit? What do you think of the MCMILLAN STOCK ON YOUR 308? As to the Factory stock.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/01/2006 at 21:25
Steelbenz View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar
ROLL TIDE ROLL

Joined: January/03/2006
Location: Heart of Dixie
Status: Offline
Points: 4902

Macky,

Your math needs adjusting,

TP = Magnafication * Square of EP

10X42 = 4.2*4.2 = 17.64

 

17.64*10= 176.40

 

16X42 = 2.625*2.625 = 6.89

 

6.89*16 = 110.25

 

20X42 = 2.1*2.1 = 4.41

4.41*20 = 88.2

 

That means the 10X42 has the best TP of the three, IF Coatings are all the same, which I would say they are. Your math makes it look as if the 20X has a better TP than the 10X and with half the EP that would be impossible.    

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/02/2006 at 04:47
macky View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: February/20/2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 122

Steelbenz .... that didn't make sense to me either ..... this is what's in the "Riflescope School" Post .....  sure looks like "Twilight Performance" is "the square root of" "magnification" X "objective diameter" .... I just figured that a smaller number meant better performance .... now I'm really confused.  Am I reading this right (wrong?)

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/02/2006 at 04:51
macky View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: February/20/2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 122
Fla Shooter .... I ordered the 308 a little over a week ago.  They say it will take 3-4 weeks to come in, so I don't know about the McMillan yet.  All I have to offer is everything I have read about it is good.  I went with it because so many people thrashed the "basic savage 10FP LE2 stock" and it was less $$$ to buy already on the gun rather than replacing it later.  All I can say is that I'll let you know.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/02/2006 at 04:55
macky View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: February/20/2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 122

UF .... I was thinking more along the lines of the 16X.  I know what you mean about limitations at 20 .... I use my 6-24 at 12 or 14 and I love it there for 100 yards.  The exit pupil gets a tad fussy at 20 and the scope is just easier to use when set at 12 or 14.

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/02/2006 at 12:55
Steelbenz View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar
ROLL TIDE ROLL

Joined: January/03/2006
Location: Heart of Dixie
Status: Offline
Points: 4902

Wow, the top one is correct, I have no doubt, But Twilight Performance is a funtion of Light transmission and resolution, the more the better. The more light that you gather in gives you more resolution, the more resolution the better the image. but the more you magnify that image the more distortion you impart on it. So my 10" telescope gives me a better picture at 40X than 400X. The same thing works with rifle scopes.

 

Macky, I just PM'ed a member who I think can help us both out, to jump in on this thread. It may take a day or two. 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/03/2006 at 01:39
koshkin View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Dark Lord of Optics

Joined: June/15/2004
Location: United States
Status: Online
Points: 10961
Thanks for pointing me to this thread, steelbenz.  I think I'll make some fairly unpopular comments, so bear with me here. 

First of all, the best I can tell these two terms (relative geometric brightness and twilight factor or performance) have been invented largely to confuse people and make optics salesmen sound more knowledgeable.  There is little actual use for them that I can think of, and I would strongly discourage people from using them to compare optics.

Macky's definitions are correct to the best of my knowledge.  However, I recall seeing steelbenz's version somewhere as well, but I just looked at Kahles and Zeiss websites and they both use the definition macky gives. 

"Relative geometric brightness" is proportional to the square of the exit pupil, which is actually somewhat relevant. 

"Twilight factor" is a term dreamed up by some german applications engineer who has been spending too much time with his schnapps.  The best example of this is the fact that a 20x42 Super Sniper has a higher "twilight factor" than a 10x42 Super Sniper.  10x42 is vastly better in twilight/lowlight than 20x42.

A higher magnification scope requires much tighter tolerances to produce the same optical quality as a lower magnificaiton scope, so expect apparent optical qulity to become worse as you go to a Super Sniper of higher magnification.

Also, the flux that gets to your eye is proprtional o the area of the exit pupil, so with the same lighting you can expect a 16x42 to be be ~56% brighter than a 20x42.  If you have to have a high magnification Super Sniper, go with a 16x42.  Also, macky didn't you just had an epiphany a little while ago? someothing regarding shooting better at 12x than at 24x?  Also, keep in mind that your Elite 4200 has noticeably better glass than the Super Sniper, especially in low light.            

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/03/2006 at 05:23
macky View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: February/20/2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 122

The "Relative Geometric Brightness" and "Twilight Performance" formulas that I originally posted were straight from "Riflescope School" here on opticstalk.  I just didn't understand why the SS10 number was higher than the SS16 and SS20 numbers .... I just figured that for some reason a lower number was better (didn't understand why, but what the heck)

 

Epiphany about shooting better at 12X ??? .... Yup, that was my epiphany, the old dog and new tricks post.

 

The reason that I was looking at the SS16 or SS20 was cause the SS10 was just a little low on the magnification side for 100 yards (10 rather than 12 or 14, which is the power range that I found best at 100 yards)  and I was also trying to look ahead to what I would need for longer distances. 

 

I don't have allot of first hand experience with scopes and shooting .... so I try and figure out what I need "analytically" with the "grey matter" which sometimes is not the "reality" of getting out there and trying them.

So in my usual "quest for the holy grail", I started to gather information to try and help me with my decision.

 

Looking at the 16X or 20X SS in the first place was a cost issue .... I really wanted varaible .... something along the lines of 6.5-20 or 6-24 .... but thought I'd pick up a SS in the interim while I saved up for a variable .... I've narrowed the field down to these

 

Zeiss Conquest, Nikon Monarch, Leupold VX-III, Burris Signature Select, Burris Black Diamond, and Bushnell Elite 4200 ...

 

ILya ... could you help me out here .... it seems that you tend to stay objective when judging scope glass (clarity, contrast, brightness, etc) .... could you put these scopes in order for me based solely on glass quality?

 

Anyone else .... I'd also like to hear about "repeatability" and "overall quality" on these scopes .... features like reticles, knobs, appearance, type of AO, I can handle myself ....

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/03/2006 at 10:23
koshkin View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Dark Lord of Optics

Joined: June/15/2004
Location: United States
Status: Online
Points: 10961
SUper Sniper scopes have great adjustments and are incredibly durable, but their glass is not as good as the scopes you mentioned above.  Now, for target shooting the Super Sniper repeatability may be more improtant, unless you plan to shoot a lot in low light.  If you do not shoot a lot in low light, a 16x Super Sniper may be the way to go for you.

Out of the scopes above, the consensus is that Conquest has the best glass.  Beyond that opinions differ, but all these scopes are really quite comparable.

I think that ELite 4200 is up there with the Zeiss or very close and the rest are about equal, but there is really not much to differentiate these all these optically.

For best bang for the buck in a high magnification scope, aside from the Suepr Sniper, you should take a close look at Weaver Grand Slam.  It is as good optically as the scopes above, but costs a little less.

I think a Weaver Grand SLam 6-20x40 can be had for just under $400 with a couple of different reticles.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/03/2006 at 16:16
macky View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: February/20/2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 122

So this is what we have, in order of Glass Quality (Best on top)

 

§         Zeiss Conquest

 

§         Bushnell Elite 4200

 

§         Burris Black Diamond

§         Nikon Monarch

§         Leupold VX-III

§         Weaver Grand Slam

 

§        Burris Signature Select

 

Where would the Super Sniper fit in?

 

Also, when we talk about best optics, is it only brightness, or is it also sharpness and contrast?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/03/2006 at 16:37
koshkin View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Dark Lord of Optics

Joined: June/15/2004
Location: United States
Status: Online
Points: 10961
Originally posted by macky macky wrote:

So this is what we have, in order of Glass Quality (Best on top)

§         Zeiss Conquest

§         Bushnell Elite 4200

 

§        Burris Signature Select

§         Burris Black Diamond

§         Nikon Monarch

§         Leupold VX-III

§         Weaver Grand Slam

Where would the Super Sniper fit in?

Also, when we talk about best optics, is it only brightness, or is it also sharpness and contrast?

 

See a slight correction above.

 

When I say optical quality, I mean overall optical quality.  Brightness alone is not a particularly significant factor.  Optical resolution is probably the most dominant factor.

 

As far as optical quality alone goes, all of the scopes above are probably better than the Super Sniper.  If you are trying to figure out where Super Sniper glass fits, it is in the same ballpark as Nikon Buckmaster and Bushnell Elite 3200.

 

ILya

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/03/2006 at 17:28
macky View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: February/20/2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 122

A little recap ....

 

Zeiss Conquest 6.5-20X50, 1” tube, side focus, exposed target knobs, mil-dot $899.95

 

Bushnell Elite 4200 6-24X40, 1” tube, side focus, covered target knobs, mil-dot $578.95

 

Burris Black Diamond 6-24X50, 30mm tube, side focus, covered target knobs, mil-dot $713.95

 

Burris Signature Select 6-24X44, 1” tube, AO, covered target knobs, mil-dot $546.95

 

Nikon Monarch 6.5-20X44, 1” tube, AO, covered target knobs, BDC (no mil-dot) $489.95

 

Leupold 6.5-20X50, 30mm tube, side focus, covered target knobs, fine duplex (no mil-dot) $799.95

 

Leupold 6.5-20X40, 1” tube, AO, covered target knobs, fine duplex (no mil-dot) $599.95

 

Weaver Grand Slam 6-20X40, 1” tube, AO, covered hunter knobs, Varminter plex (no mil-dot) $399.95

 

So here's where I'm stucko ..... I'd love to go for the Zeiss.  I have a 3-9X40MC on my Springfield and the optics are sweet ..... $899.95 is above where I'd like to go (do-able but I'm kinda toying with a Glock 27)

 

Then there the Elite 4200 ... new with side focus .... smaller by almost 4" .... have one on my .223 Savage 12VLP ... shoots great .... was kinda hoping to get something different ...

but sure is tempting

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/03/2006 at 18:06
koshkin View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Dark Lord of Optics

Joined: June/15/2004
Location: United States
Status: Online
Points: 10961

I'd have to say that this depends on on how much money you want to spend and what reticle you want.

 

If you are OK with fine crosshairs or a dot reticle, Weaver Grand Slam is an awesome deal.

 

If you want to have a holdover reticle, Burris Signature Select with Ballistic Mil-Dot may be the way to go.

 

If you want side forcus adjustment, go with a Elite 4200.

 

When I was selecting a high magnification scope, I went with an Elite 4200  6-24x40 (with AO, not side focus).  However, if I did not want a Mil-Dot, I'd probably end up with a Grand Slam.

 

ILya

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/04/2006 at 07:10
macky View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: February/20/2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 122

**** Scratches Head after much reading ****

 

So here's where I think I am ...

 

I was going to go for the new Bushnell 6-24X40 with Side Focus .... but I found out that Bushnell did not thread the objective ... so attaching a sunshade is out of the question.  I'm not happy with that so ...

 

My choices (as of now) are

 

1.  Bushnell Elite 4200 6-24X40 without the side focus ... same one I have on my Savage 12VLP .223 ... tried and true .... I do like this scope

 

OR (not in that order)

 

2.  Nikon Monarch 6.5-20X44 .... I like the 44 rather than 40 to pick up a little more on Exit Pupil and I like the idea of having a different scope rather than a second of one I already have ... also like the second set of knobs

 

Question is how different is the optics on the Nikon and how does overall quality compare with the Bushnell .... use will be paper punching ..... maybe on a cloudy day but probably not real early or late in the day.

 

What's the consensus?  Thanks

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/04/2006 at 12:17
koshkin View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Dark Lord of Optics

Joined: June/15/2004
Location: United States
Status: Online
Points: 10961
In decent light there is no practical difference between 40mm objective and 44mm objective.

As for the Elite 4200 vs the Monarch, I prefer the glass of the Elite 4200, but both are good scopes.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/07/2006 at 03:55
macky View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: February/20/2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 122

Well I decided to go with the Nikon ..... I was seriously leaning towards the Bushnell Elite 4200 6-24X40.  I already have one on my Savage 12VLP .223 and it is super.  But as I was looking around I came accross an EBAY auction ... run by SWFA for the Nikon Monarch 6.5-20X44.  It was the one with the illuminated Mil-Dot reticle.

 

This is the exact scope


6605 Nikon 6.5-20x44 Monarch UCC Riflescope Nikon 6.5-20x44 Monarch UCC Riflescope
  • Matte
  • Illuminated Mil-Dot
  • 1"
  • Adjustable Objective
  • Target Knobs
SWFA: $629.95
More Info... Buy Now


Well they were selling it for $449.95 ... it was listed as "Like New Demo Model"  I wasn't sure what that meant so I E-Mailed them ... here's the reply


The scope you receive will still be in the original box and will be untouched. This item has been discontinued by Nikon and they have replaced it with a new part number. The new model will be exactly the same, but will just have a different part number for marketing purposes. In order for us to advertise and sell this scope on eBay we have to say “like new model”.

 

When the illumination is off you will have a black reticle like other non illuminated scopes.

 

The scope comes with the same warranty as any other Nikon scopes… lifetime.


 

Well that was enough for me .... Nikon Monarch,  6.5-20X44, Illuminated Mil-Dot (Red or Green) or Black .... AND, I've never had a Nikon ... which gives me "hands -on" experience with another brand to use and compare.

 

I'm pretty sure they have more ... if you're interested (which you may or may not be) you can search for SWFA on EBAY.

 

So my list of scopes that I own will include Zeiss Conquest, Bushnell Elite 4200, Nikon Monarch, Super Sniper SS10X42M, and an older Weaver Classic 4 Power.  I'm planning on doing some "resolution", "color rendition" and "low light" testing .... I'll let everyone know what my thoughts are then.

 

Thanks to everyone for their help on this one .... especially Koshkin 

 

 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Similar Threads: "A Super Sniper Question"
Subject Author Forum Replies Last Post
Super Sniper question greywolf Rifle Scopes 4 9/22/2005 3:43:10 PM
Super Sniper question newmanuim Tactical Scopes 12 7/23/2007 9:44:42 AM
Super Sniper Questions Tom Kirkman Rifle Scopes 9 9/27/2007 11:00:43 AM
Super Sniper Question loveyourmudder Rifle Scopes 14 11/23/2007 9:03:24 AM
Super Sniper Reticle Question lemmethink Rifle Scopes 5 6/22/2007 12:39:03 PM
Super Sniper 10x42m Question hepcatz Rifle Scopes 12 7/16/2007 6:27:01 PM
Super Sniper/Mil Dot Newbie Question ozzy1038 Tactical Scopes 6 7/4/2006 12:00:27 AM
Super Sniper Mounting Question BS Smith Tactical Scopes 13 10/11/2004 5:20:23 PM
HELP:: Super Sniper 10X42 Question ath0913 Tactical Scopes 2 12/1/2005 4:28:00 PM
Super Sniper 20x Screw In Caps ptf18 Tactical Scopes 2


This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.