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A Question For Expensive Optic Owners...

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supertool73 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 11:30
I just got a Swaro Z6 and I compared it to some of my mid priced scopes this last weekend.  Initally when I looked through it I did not think wow or anything.  But as I compared it to my other scopes it became obvious very quickly how much better optically it really is.

I thought my Trijicon had great glass and would be tough to beat.  But after using it next to the Z6 there is no comparison.  The image quality was unbelievable better. 

Now I just wish I could afford high end scopes for all my guns, as it is going to be hard to use the cheaper scopes now.


Edited by supertool73 - November/08/2010 at 11:30
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WestOfPecos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 12:06
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

I just got a Swaro Z6. 

Now I just wish I could afford high end scopes for all my guns, as it is going to be hard to use the cheaper scopes now.

This is a very dangerous situation. Assuming that you have 20 rifles, this means that, 19 times out of 20, you will feel unhappy and striving for a different scope. It means that 19 week-ends out of twenty will be BAD weekends. From being a happy shooter and hunter, you could turn into a grumpy, shrewish, frowning, angry gun-owner - the most dangerous type.

I am not even discussing here what your rifles will endure. 19 out of 20 of them will be subject to a virulent attack of scope envy. This is what some people pay rifle psychiatrists (so-called "gunsmiths") thousands of dollars per year for. Oh, boy, you are in for it now...

I can see only one solution, but I am ready to help you - we can go through this together. Ship me your Z6 right away, and take away the source of unrest and dissatisfaction. Recover serenity and serendipity within your soul. Reestablish peace within your rifle community. Do not wait even one minute, or you could make your situation even worse. All of this is a PM away:-)


Edited by WestOfPecos - November/08/2010 at 12:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3_tens Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 12:14
I was lucky enough to pick up a Kahles 2-7 off of the forum for my 17 HMR. I will have to admit I have missed taking shots at some squirrels because of the optics. The clarity and contrast is so good that I just watch the squirrels and forget to pull the trigger. Even at low power you can see every hair and the gleam in their eyes. Lesser scopes have less contrast and you will miss seeing your game because the slightly blurred image will allow the animals camouflage to work for them. A high end scope will bring out the fine details that will many times make the game pop out over the background in heavy cover. For me, the higher end scopes are worth the extra money. I find it hard to get away from work to go hunting. Less time in the woods makes every chance to make a shot, much more valuable.  

Edited by 3_tens - November/08/2010 at 12:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 12:39
Originally posted by WestOfPecos WestOfPecos wrote:

Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

I just got a Swaro Z6. 

Now I just wish I could afford high end scopes for all my guns, as it is going to be hard to use the cheaper scopes now.

This is a very dangerous situation. Assuming that you have 20 rifles, this means that, 19 times out of 20, you will feel unhappy and striving for a different scope. It means that 19 week-ends out of twenty will be BAD weekends. From being a happy shooter and hunter, you could turn into a grumpy, shrewish, frowning, angry gun-owner - the most dangerous type.

I am not even discussing here what your rifles will endure. 19 out of 20 of them will be subject to a virulent attack of scope envy. This is what some people pay rifle psychiatrists (so-called "gunsmiths") thousands of dollars per year for. Oh, boy, you are in for it now...

I can see only one solution, but I am ready to help you - we can go through this together. Ship me your Z6 right away, and take away the source of unrest and dissatisfaction. Recover serenity and serendipity within your soul. Reestablish peace within your rifle community. Do not wait even one minute, or you could make your situation even worse. All of this is a PM away:-)


See the problem with that is then you will be in the same boat as I am in.  I would not wish this on anyone, so I guess I will just have to bear this burden on my own. 
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ccoker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 12:45
this begs the question:
is it better to have a few rifles with decent scopes or 1 with a great scope that you know intimately?
assuming they overlap in calibers and use..


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SVT_Tactical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 12:48
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

See the problem with that is then you will be in the same boat as I am in.  I would not wish this on anyone, so I guess I will just have to bear this burden on my own. 
 
I'll fix it for both of you.  ST just send me all your other scopes and then buy more swaro's to fit them.  Ill just never look through better so I want be envious.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 15:39
Originally posted by ccoker ccoker wrote:

this begs the question:
is it better to have a few rifles with decent scopes or 1 with a great scope that you know intimately?
assuming they overlap in calibers and use..


 
I think it is always better to have more rifles.
 
Outfit one or two that you will use the most with top drawer optics and just use decent mid range optics on everything else.
 
...unless you're independently wealthy, in which case get both high end rifles and top of the line scopes for all of them!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ccoker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 16:06
definitely believe in having a backup, I would never go out hunting with just one gun...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich Coyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 17:56
stickbow46,
 
What size is the objective on the two?  Have you compared the Z5 with 6500 after the sun went down?  If one is better, how many minutes better?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 19:08
Im still not sold. Most of my equipment is geared towards hunting and most of that is used at night for hogs. When im looking for hogs Im using my binoculars. When I spot one, that I think is a good boar, the challenge isnt finding him in the scope, its getting the crosshairs on him.  Ive never had a 2500.00 Swarovski with illuminated crosshairs to try this with, but im betting that at best its a hair better than my Trijicon. Its certainly not 1500.00 better. I dont deer hunt often, but to me, it would be the same except you also would have legal issues. If you find the deer in your binoculars, but cant see him through your scope, then likely, its past legal shooting hours anyway. Im assuming You have good, if not great equipment here. say, Zeiss Conquest or comparable. A scope with thick crosshairs is an advantage when shooting in low light but at the same time, its an enemy when you mostly punch paper. I could be wrong, as Im not a target shooter but I doubt if a more expensive scope would make me a better shot. I agree with RifleDude. Id rather have two good rifles with good optics than one great rifle with great optics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JLud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 19:44
I look at it a lot like cars, TVs, or anything else.
 
They are priced from low, to mid, to high.....You get into the law of diminishing returns...At first, a little bit more gets you a lot more features...but then, you start getting less and less for your money.  Then, you get to the point where you are paying for just a name, or a rare feature, or really just status.
 
There are people out there totally happy with a Corolla that gets them form A to B, and there are people that drive exactly the same that want a Porche.  Both serve the same purpose, one just does it faster and with more attention.
 
There are people that just want to spend 15k on a car, and those with more money that want to spend 100k on a car.  To help take that money from people, manufactures make cars that cost 100k or more.  Just like the speed limit is at 55, it doesnt stop people from getting something fast, similar to the low light condition.
 
So, if your like me, a 2011 Mustang GT at 412 hp and an interior that compares with a BMW for only 32k is great.  Others will want to spend much more to get that certain German or Italian name, thats probably actually slower, but has more prestige associated with the name.  Go with what you want, and what you can afford.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 21:32
Spoken by two guys who obviously don't own a Z6.  Wink

I used to have the same opinion, but now that I have one, I realized they really are a lot better. 

Optically a Trijicon is pretty nice.  But when comparing it next to my Swaro, it is like comparing a Trijicon to a $50 Tasco World Class.  They really are that nice.


Edited by supertool73 - November/08/2010 at 21:32
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 21:51
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

Spoken by two guys who obviously don't own a Z6.  Wink

I used to have the same opinion, but now that I have one, I realized they really are a lot better. 

Optically a Trijicon is pretty nice.  But when comparing it next to my Swaro, it is like comparing a Trijicon to a $50 Tasco World Class.  They really are that nice.
Nope, I dont own one. How about explaining what shot that scope can make that a Trijicon cant and how owning one would allow me to take a shot that I wouldnt be able to take with a typical mid priced scope? Im sure they are a bit sharper, Ive looked through them at my local dealer. They are bright, contrasty. Im sure they are well built. Are they worth the money? Not to me. Id rather spend it on ammo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonoMT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 22:05
I never saw any reason to own anything else than a fixed 4X scope (which I still have  - a Leupy FX-II) until I decided I wanted to be able to shoot out past max. point blank range. With my two variables - a NF and a Premier - I've dumped some cash into them. But they track like lasers, are built like tanks, have great turrets (esp. the Premier), really versatile magnification ranges, and excellent reticles. The NF has (to my eye) really nice glass while the Premier has glass that is on par with the best. I wouldn't shoot a game animal much farther past what I could with the 4X but I do practice out as far as I can as often as possible. The 600 yard shots make the 300 yard shots a lot easier and the 300 yard shots make the 100 yard shots a snap.


Edited by jonoMT - November/08/2010 at 22:07
Reaction time is a factor...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stickbow46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 22:55
+1 with jono.
 
Rich, my bell is 44,that's all they make for the 3.5-18.on the one that you ordered they only make a 52 bell.I only got my scope 3 weeks ago,have not hunted with it yet.I did however wait till the sun went down to compare with the 6500.I was able to see quite a bit more with the Swaro,by that I mean the clarity jumps out while the 6500 made everthing look bland & lack luster & I seemed to have lost most of the detail I had earlier.I compared both scopes at 5-10 & 14 power to try & make it as close as posible.
 
A closer comparison was with my Conquest3.5-10x50,there the difference was much smaller,but overall the Z5 still kicked butt,even with a 44 vs a 50 bell.
 
Looking forward to your findings!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8shots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/09/2010 at 04:28
+1 with Jono.
 
I hunted with a Tasco 1,5-5 x 20 for years (yes I really did!!!). I mostly hit what I aimed at inside 300yds. I also made a few incredible shots out a little further.
 
Today I use better scopes and I am amazed as to why I originally bought the Tasco. Would I take the Tasco to a field competition? Not if I want to be a serious competitor!!!
 
Do I shoot better then I did with the Tasco? For hunting probably not, but for targets out beyond the point blank range definately yes.


Edited by 8shots - November/09/2010 at 04:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teach yang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/09/2010 at 04:47
Excellent
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ccoker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/09/2010 at 08:48
Originally posted by tejas tejas wrote:

Im still not sold. Most of my equipment is geared towards hunting and most of that is used at night for hogs. When im looking for hogs Im using my binoculars. When I spot one, that I think is a good boar, the challenge isnt finding him in the scope, its getting the crosshairs on him.  Ive never had a 2500.00 Swarovski with illuminated crosshairs to try this with, but im betting that at best its a hair better than my Trijicon. Its certainly not 1500.00 better. I dont deer hunt often, but to me, it would be the same except you also would have legal issues. If you find the deer in your binoculars, but cant see him through your scope, then likely, its past legal shooting hours anyway. Im assuming You have good, if not great equipment here. say, Zeiss Conquest or comparable. A scope with thick crosshairs is an advantage when shooting in low light but at the same time, its an enemy when you mostly punch paper. I could be wrong, as Im not a target shooter but I doubt if a more expensive scope would make me a better shot. I agree with RifleDude. Id rather have two good rifles with good optics than one great rifle with great optics.


I maintain that the Accupoint is the best overall hunting scope you can get when you factor in price and performance, i.e., the value prop.

Great glass, great ill ret system, reliable
You make a very valid point, would a top line Zeiss, Swaro, S&B, Kahles, etc.. enable a shot that the Trijicjon would not be able to take?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/09/2010 at 08:52
use the 2x12 swaro in deep (dark) timber at day break for elk in the yellowstone area, most shots around 50 yds, if you can see that far., On 2 power (which is why I got the scope, not long range shots) its better than a bunch of other stuff I've ever used. I can understand not wanting to go that much for a scope-- but on the other hand it has a unique set of characteristics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3_tens Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/09/2010 at 15:15
Originally posted by supertool73

Spoken by two guys who obviously don't own a Z6.  Wink

I used to have the same opinion, but now that I have one, I realized they really are a lot better. 

Optically a Trijicon is pretty nice.  But when comparing it next to my Swaro, it is like comparing a Trijicon to a $50 Tasco World Class.  They really are that nice.
______________
 
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

use the 2x12 swaro in deep (dark) timber at day break for elk in the yellowstone area, most shots around 50 yds, if you can see that far., On 2 power (which is why I got the scope, not long range shots) its better than a bunch of other stuff I've ever used. I can understand not wanting to go that much for a scope-- but on the other hand it has a unique set of characteristics.
 
Like Supertool says "They are that nice".
Dale is hunting where the difference really shows. In the heavy cover. This is where the better contrast will let you see the game that will walk right on by if you have the lesser scope. You can see through the forest to see the game. Hunting in a bean field most any scope that holds zero will do just fine. When you are in cover you better have the better glass or you can't see whats in the forest for the trees.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Magnumdood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/09/2010 at 16:13
Originally posted by tejas tejas wrote:

Nope, I dont own one. How about explaining what shot that scope can make that a Trijicon cant and how owning one would allow me to take a shot that I wouldnt be able to take with a typical mid priced scope? Im sure they are a bit sharper, Ive looked through them at my local dealer. They are bright, contrasty. Im sure they are well built. Are they worth the money? Not to me. Id rather spend it on ammo.

Spoken like someone who has never used a high-end optic during adverse conditions.  Comparing scopes at the sporting goods store is close to useless.  Although, I would note that if you did see a difference at the sporting goods counter, that difference would be magnified dramatically in the field.  A toilet paper roll with string for a reticle looks passable at the store under the florescent lights, or even outside in the bright sunshine.  Where good glass shines is what it looks into, and seemingly through.  I have a Hensoldt 6-24X72.  I never before have been able to see the mirage and see through it at the same time.  The same principle applies to all obstructions that are translucent.  My Hensoldt would pick out a hog at night that you couldn’t see with a mid-priced scope.  The image is a very definite WOW.  Additionally, the Hensoldt line is built to Mil-spec standards.  The Hensoldt distributer likens the Hensoldt to a Zeiss on steroids.  The Hensoldt also has different, harder, lens coatings than their Zeiss cousins.  It’s a tougher coating and improves on the Zeiss Victory image (which I thought was impossible to do).  High-end glass has all kinds of advantages no matter what you’re using it for.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonoMT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/09/2010 at 16:53
Tejas does have a point though. You could spend so much on the equipment that you just plain have to work to pay for it instead of spending time (and money saved) on expending ammo at the range. IMO, if you're going to spend the money on high-end glass or a super-accurate rifle, make sure you're committed to it. Otherwise, try to outgrow what you have. That's easy if it's a tupperware stocked rifle with a $80 scope. It's harder if it's a $600 rifle with a $400 Zeiss Conquest 3-9X.


Reaction time is a factor...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/09/2010 at 19:54
Obviously I cant convince all of You who own mult-thousand dollar scopes that You wasted your money. Im not trying to. Dale gave a real-life example in his post above about why he needs his particular scope.  Makes sense to me. I dont hunt that area and rarely hunt at that time of day. I dont know if my Trijicons or Conquests can make those shots. Probably depends a whole lot on eyeballs as well as optics. For the hunting I do, which is mostly at night, under a big moon in the South Texas brush country, My equipment is more than up to the task. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8shots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/10/2010 at 00:41
So Apostle...........?????????????????
 
Time to pitch in!!!!!!!!!!
 
Are expensive scopes worth the money?????????????
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote grimreaper21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/10/2010 at 08:31
We're beating a dead horse here. It depends on your use. Is it worth paying more for diminishing returns? Yes to some people. Is it critical the scope performs at the very last moments towards sundown? Or are you going to be sitting on a bench rest, target shooting in the afternoon always in nice conditions. Worth is something you need to define for yourself
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