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6mm Rem AI vs 243 vs 6mmX284

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/03/2011 at 13:57
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I spent a bit of time at our local gunshop today discussing caliber change:
 
The story is this: I want to use my existing chassis: 308Win Rem 700 action with Varminter stock.
Everything has already been tuned up, so I just want to swop barrels.
 
We looked at the 260 Rem (6,5mm Caliber), the 6mm Rem and the 6mm Rem AI.
 
I found a gunsmith who specializes in the 6mmRem AI. Says he gets 3900ft per second with 80gr SMK.
 
I think I will go this route.
 
He cuts from a Krige barrel blank.
 
Any comments or thoughts will be appreciated.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/03/2011 at 18:31
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That sounds like a winner for the comp circuit...Until the lands run out the muzzle! I don't really know what is available in your market, but here in the states, 6mm rem brass is both rare and spendy when compared to the .243 win. Also, to get the most out of a barrel that is chambered for something as over-bore as that, I would look into 105gr. or heavier bullets.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/04/2011 at 09:19
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260 is suppose to have great barrel life and good bullet selection
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/04/2011 at 09:32
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Thinkin 3900 is a bit high. but maybe.  I can only get 3600 fps out of 58 gr vmax in my 6mm. IN any case the barrel might go to 1200 rds. As bb suggested 105 , tight twist, would be better way to go. the bc on bullets below 100gr drops of fast.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/05/2011 at 18:09
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I don't have any first hand experience with those calibers. But I do like reading about their attributes.

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek042.html
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/07/2011 at 00:27
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What is its intended purpose (varmints, paper or deer size game)?
 
-A 6mm Remington & 243 Winchester will work in S/A.  Not familiar with 6x284 but a 6.5x284 has a reputation as a barrel burner (depnding on ones accuracy requirements).  Barrel life is something that isn't always easy to get your arms around, a lot of factors involved from case-to-case. 
 
-I've heard/read that Improved cartridges don't always function well in a repeater.  Don't have any experiences myself.  So, FWIW...
 
-I can get 3400-3500 with a 75 out of my 6mm Remington.  Unless the altitude is very high or other better than favorable conditions, I'd say to get 3900 out of a 80gr is a tall order, even if it is a AI.  I wasn't aware Sierra made a 6mm 80 SMK bullet.  I know they make a 107 gr and I believe a 70 and a 95 SMK too.   
 
-The 6mm caliber is one of those calibers that you need to consider what the rifle is for because the twist rates of the barrels can go from 1-7 up to 1-14.  Heavy bullets don't shoot well, if at all, in slow twist barrels.  Light bullets don't always shoot their best in fast twist barrels and when driven too fast, they may come apart.
 
-As fas as brass, the 6mm Remington is limited to Winchester & Remington.  I believe Norma and RWS makes 7x57 brass that can be necked down.  I've never had a problem finding 6mm Brass, I'm constantly seeing it a Sportsmans Warehouse and Cabelas.  It's also regularly available at Midway when ever I've looked.  With the 6mm Remington AI version, you'll have to fire form.  260 Remington brass is available from Lapua & Remington for sure.  Not sure if Norma, Nosler or Winchester makes it yet, if at all. 
 
In the target world, the 6mm Remington and 260 Remington are pretty equal.  The 260 would probably have better barrel life because of the "over bore" of the other two cartridges.  For varmints I'd probably go with the 6mm Remington but for dual purpose varmints & deer the 260 might be a better fit, especially for deer size and above.
 
Nothing wrong with Krieger barrels but there are many other good ones out there.
 
HTH 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/07/2011 at 08:34
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3900 FPS = plasma torch to the throat.  To some, it matters; to others, not so much..

I am a big fan of the 6.5s. I like the 260 so much I am having another built, shoots flat, great bullet selection, works with all things 308-based.  7mm-08 is another option.




Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/07/2011 at 22:32
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

3900 FPS = plasma torch to the throat.  To some, it matters; to others, not so much..

I am a big fan of the 6.5s. I like the 260 so much I am having another built, shoots flat, great bullet selection, works with all things 308-based.  7mm-08 is another option.




I'm thinking real hard about it myself.
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/2011 at 05:39
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The intention is for paper targets and 8 inch steel gongs.
 
We compete in the Formula 1 event of rifle shooting. Throw money at it and your chances of being in the top 10 is good. barrel life or concern about it is like saying to Schumaker, just take it easy, we only have one set of tyres for you.
 
We shoot at unknown distances. Get it wrong by 25 yds on a 308 Win 155gr Palma and you can go home.
 
Even 40 yds wrong on a bullet doing 3600 ft out to 350 yds is nothing. You still walk home with a hit.
 
The top dogs are all shooting 243 AI, 6mm, 6mm Rem AI, 6,5 x 284.
 
So I want to go top dog. Fastest bullet and caliber combo. Like lightning, like a laser, like the speed of light...
 
I realise barrel twist is going to be an important decision.
 
Thanks for all the input. It has helped me in my decisions.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/2011 at 06:50
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260 all the way. its not a sppedster round but great round for all around use. the 6.5x284 is a great round also. I don't think you can go wrong with ether
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/2011 at 23:23
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You won't go wrong with a 6mm Remington either.  However, and as a reminder, the top quality brass makers (Nosler, Lapua, Norma, RWS) don't make 6mm Remington brass.  Also, if you can use the 115gr Tubbs bullet, that just makes it even better.
 
Go to JBM ballistics, plug in the data for all the different cartridges and see what pops up.  The 6mm Remington (A/I & STD), 243 Winchester (A/I & STD), 6.5 x284 and the 260 Remington are all pretty close.
 
FWIW, there are some other cartridges that may interest you;
-6CM
-6 Super LR
-6.5 Super LR
 
I'm getting ready to have a 6mm Remington barrel put on my 40-x.  I stuck with the 6mm Remington because I already have the Redding Competition dies, case gages (and so on) so it isn't cost effetive for me to switch cartridges unless there is a significant difference.
 
If you're just starting out and don't have any of the gear, check the merits of each one and then decide.
 
As far as barrel life, that is subjective to many things including one's accuracy requirements.  I always feel compelled to mention it so someone won't be disappointed when their barrel is gone in short order.
 
HTH


Edited by tjtjwdad - September/08/2011 at 23:39
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/2011 at 23:37
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One other thing to add is the 7mm bullets.  You may have to deal with more recoil depending on the cartridge but 7mm bullets have some of the highest BC's out there.  I know you didn't mention these in the OP but I thought I'd just throw the info out there.
 
When you choose your barrel make sure you get a good quality one and most important, a good gun smith to install it.
 
 
 
 


Edited by tjtjwdad - September/08/2011 at 23:37
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/11/2011 at 13:00
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Please clarify the 260mm Rem.
 
Everybody recommends I go to the 260 Rem, but the ballistics only offer 2900 ft per second???
 
How will that help me better my current trajectory of my 308 at 2850 ft per second???
 
Or compete with the Rem AI at 3700 ft per sec ???
 
At a shoot this week end a top shooter suggested the same to me...that I go for the 260 Rem because of high BC.
 
But at 2900 ft per second I get that from my current rig.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/11/2011 at 13:24
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Here is a lengthy article on the .260. I use one for hunting and like it more than my .30 cal rifles. The bullets have high BC's and SD's and the recoil is low.
http://demigodllc.com/articles/the-case-for-260-remington/?p=1
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/11/2011 at 21:58
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I can't see the need at all for the .260 myself either.  Its in between two great claibers the 25-06 and the .270 Win which are both hands down better all around???????
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/11/2011 at 22:03
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Originally posted by little cleo little cleo wrote:

I can't see the need at all for the .260 myself either.  Its in between two great claibers the 25-06 and the .270 Win which are both hands down better all around???????
Until you get past 500 yards...Then the 260 smokes them both. And does it in a short-action rifle, with less recoil and less powder burned...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/12/2011 at 05:50
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Thanks Doug for a good read.
 
All this info is being carefully looked at.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/12/2011 at 23:31
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If you don't have any of the equipment and are starting from scratch with this project, then don't sell the 7mm bullets short.  Do a JBM comparision of a Remington 7mmSAUM with a 180 SMK @ 2900 fps against the following;

- 6.5x284 142 SMK @ 3000 fps: 1000 yds: -25.3 MOA,  Wind Drift 9.7 MOA
- 260 Remington 142 SMK @2800 fps: 1000 yds: -29.9 MOA,  Wind Drift 10.9 MOA
- 243 Winchester 107 SMK @3000 fps: 1000 yds: -27.0 MOA,  Wind Drift 11.0 MOA
- 6mm Remington 107 SMK @ 3100 fps: 1000 yds: -24.9 MOA,  Wind Drift 10.4 MOA
- 7mm SAUM 180 SMK @ 2900 fps: 1000 yds: -25.7 MOA,  Wind Drift 8.6 MOA
 
You may like what you see.  I did last night and I like what I saw.  It has less drop and wind deflection using 90 deg @ 15 mph than all of the above. 
 
I'll confess when gathering info on a cartridge you don't have becomes subjective.  I searched several sites and the consences was an average of what I listed above.  About the max velocity I saw for the 260 Remington with 142  SMK was 2940 and there were concerns of the pressure signs.  Sure, the 260 Remington can be driven faster than 2800 as can the 243 Winchester but are they accurate and again, how are the pressure signs?  I have a 6mm Remington that I can drive a 107 much faster than 3100, but then it is out of the sweet-spot.  The 115 gr is also available if I wanted too.
 
I'm not knocking the 6.5 cartridges or any others for that matter.  They're all good and with Lapua offering 260 Remington brass, that would be a hard cartridge not to consider.  Same as the 260 A/I.  Not sure of the barrel life of a 260 A/I, figuring it would be similar to the 6.5x284. 
 
I believe if you went with either of these cartridges you'll be able to accomplish what you want.  Another cartridge (7mm) is the 284 Winchester.  It ain't no slouch either.  BC-for-BC, and if you need the energy, the 7mm bullets are tough to beat.  
 
Maybe I've misread some of your earlier post but I believe I've seen some pretty high velocities for the 6mm bullets (3600, 3700, 3900).  I don't see the 105/107/115 VLD bullets doing that velocity in the 6mm Remington or 243 cases (6x284 is unknown).  Maybe a 6mm-06.
 
HTH  
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2011 at 10:33
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To clarify, I only need ballistics out to 380 yds. No further.
And I need the least amount of drop over this distance. That is all.
I also need no terminal velocity. It only needs to go through paper.
 
 


Edited by 8shots - September/13/2011 at 10:35
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2011 at 20:47
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How about the 223 and 243 wssm's? Both are going to be torches on the throat but...YMMV
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2011 at 22:53
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If it's only 380 yards that opens up a whole host of small caliber cartridges.  If it were me and accuracy is the opmost criteria, I would tend to look at 22, 243, 264, 284 and 308 size bullets because those are used in competitions and they all have prooved them selves. 
 
I would however, toss in a 20 cal, 204 Ruger using a 39 SBK and it is deadly accurate.  I'm easily knocking off chip munk size targets up to 450 yards and beyond.  Light zippy bullets get blown around more but heck, on an 8" target @ 380 yards, that shouldn't be a problem.
 
One other thing to consider as far as cartridge is whether this is all single shot or do you need a repeater?  I've heard and read, that some of the Ackley/WSSM/WSM/Rem SAUM style of cartridges don't always cycle very well.
 
I would go over to 6mmbr.com and check out that site.  There is a lot of good useful info posted there.  Still, though, nothing wrong with a 6mm Remington.  In my aersonal, nothing beats it in drop or drift out to 1000 yds.  If you're inclined to try an AR check out 6mmar.com 
 
HTH
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2011 at 23:11
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Originally posted by billyburl2 billyburl2 wrote:

Originally posted by little cleo little cleo wrote:

I can't see the need at all for the .260 myself either.  Its in between two great claibers the 25-06 and the .270 Win which are both hands down better all around???????
Until you get past 500 yards...Then the 260 smokes them both. And does it in a short-action rifle, with less recoil and less powder burned...

Billyburl2: can you explain what you mean here, I am looking at factory loadings because I do not handload, but I cannot find a single factory loading where the .260 beats out the .270 win for energy or trajectory at 1000 yards. Perhaps I am looking at the wrong makers, but it looks to me like with the same bullets these two cartridges are roughly identical and in fact the .270 has a slight edge in all categories at 1000.

This is of course irrelevant to me, because I don't have anywhere I could possibly shoot a 1000 yards with a rifle even if I possessed the skill to do it well. So for me 500 yards is a more realistic distance to measure performance by. I imagine that is true for the majority of shooters as well, especially if the shots in question will be during hunting situations where I would probably bring that distance down to a 300 yard reasonable max for most people.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/14/2011 at 10:31
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My 223 wssm will shoot 55 grain vmax's at 3900 fps.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/14/2011 at 10:47
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What your drop at say 400yds on that ST?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/14/2011 at 10:53
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At my elevation it is about 15 inches.  
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