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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/27/2012 at 18:20
AllenM View Drop Down
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I just picked up an AR in 458 Socom.
I have a Nikon Slughunter scope. What are the odds it will be able to handle the recoil?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/28/2012 at 08:39
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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ft/lbs recoil isn't that bad, about like a mild 45/70 if that. the round's main advantage is large meplat and mass. over the .223. the life of the scope depends more on how much it will be shot-- are you reloading? biggest problem I had was using Eo, where the recoil will actually hammer the ends of the batterys shorting them out

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/28/2012 at 08:42
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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but regular scopes work fine, out to about 200-300 yds where the traj. starts to show up
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/28/2012 at 09:06
AllenM View Drop Down
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I do reload I have not for this cartridge yet but I am sure I will be.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/28/2012 at 10:41
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The scope should do fine, this scope is designed specifically for slow, heavy recoil. At least thats they way its marketed only time will tell.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/28/2012 at 10:52
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Sounds like a good match to me. Wink
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/28/2012 at 10:57
AllenM View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

Sounds like a good match to me. Wink

Cool deal
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/28/2012 at 13:45
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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slug scopes are designed with heavy reticles or dots to be used in alot in dark timber and such, or maybe at the longer ranges of a heavy turkey load. the internals are no different than the makers other lines of scopesin this general class. What kills a scope is the recoil velocity not the recoil in ft/lbs. heavy recoiling revolvers are far harder on scopes than a slug gun or even a "heavy", if this is your main concern you should look at handgun scopes
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/05/2012 at 21:34
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Considering my eyesight sucks anymore,and I only handload for all of the calibers I shoot,I mounted a Weaver Super Slam 3-15x50 on my 458 SOCOM. Now I know that's too much magnification for the gun,but since I spend atleast 1-2 days a week shooting test loads out of this gun at 100-200 yards I like to be able to see where it is shooting without needing a spotting scope.And 3x works out great for me while hunting with it.
 
The recoil out of the 458 isn't that bad with the 300-350 grain bullets,but the 405-500 grain bullets will wake you up,and rattle things around.It has shaken the rings and mount loose on a couple of occassions,and I use blue locktite on all of the mounts.
It comes more from a vibration pulse than from the recoil,but that's just the nature of an AR platform.You just need to check all of your mounts often,and retorque them as needed.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/05/2012 at 22:12
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The heavy recoil is why they invented a thing called a muzzle brake,not trying to be a wise guy but I use one on my 460mag when I'm in the mood to shoot 100 rds without braking my shoulder which has already been rebuilt with dacron legaments !
 
Good luck with the SOCOM & keep us posted,I'm in the market for another big bore.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2012 at 09:32
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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the muzzle break (note spelling) really doesn't dampen that much recoil, but may help with muzzle flip. I use a NFA lower (select fire) on the socom all the time. 3 shot bursts are not bad, but dumping a mag causes some muzzle climb.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2012 at 10:47
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

the muzzle break (note spelling) really doesn't dampen that much recoil, but may help with muzzle flip. I use a NFA lower (select fire) on the socom all the time. 3 shot bursts are not bad, but dumping a mag causes some muzzle climb.


Incorrect spelling noted.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2012 at 12:53
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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brake is the incorrect spelling, --  how does the force that can only accelerate a 300 gr bullet about 100 fps in the last couple of inches is going to apply enough brake to decelerate a 7 lb (490000 gr.) gun on exciting. The only reduction of acceleration is that amount subtracted from the total mass of the ejecta that can act on the surface area of the end of the muzzle or the device. most devices contribution to the "recoil reduction" by an decrease of the torque moment about the center or pivot point of the firearm.
In the original muzzle brakes, the cylinder gap on a revolver , very little torque,  is reduced because of the close proximity of the gap/break to the pivot point, but increases as with the barrel length.   
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2012 at 13:05
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Dale I respect your view points, but here I disagree with you. Several manufacture of these muzzle treatments refer to them as muzzle brakes.

Also by definition a brake is a mechanical device which inhibits motion. And to break is to cause to separate into pieces.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2012 at 14:08
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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referring to them incorrectly doesn't correct anything, by definition "to brake", is a negative vector force  or a vector force acting in the opposite direction which doesn't occur, and it doesn't have to be mechanical, a muzzle brake, does just that--- it breaks the muzzle blast into pieces, or fragments it.
The peak recoil forces  are generated at max. pressure, when the pressure x the surface area of the object worked on equal the force, and when done thru a distance is the work performed.  the force left at the end of the muzzle is at least 3 orders of magnitude less than this force, and even if it operated at 100% mechanical efficiency would have negligible effect as a "brake" 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2012 at 15:26
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Come on Dale give me a break [couldn't resist Big Grin]We all know for every action there is a reaction.I know when I use a break it cuts back on the recoil of my rifle,how much I can't tell you I only know that if I want to shoot alot It makes it very bearable.

I 'm sure from a scientific point of view you are correct,but I also can see the gas pressure's exiting the barrel before it hits the actual barrel crown
Also I've never seen a 50 cal without a muzzle brake & I have seen guys hand hold & shoot them
 
Not trying to start an argument but there are muzzle breaks & there are muzzle breaks..........
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2012 at 17:55
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Vectors??? Really??? This has no where to go but down, so I am done.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2012 at 18:45
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the bearable part comes from less work being done on the cheek piece. part of the gas actually increases in velocity past the bullet, to in some cases 4500 to 5000 fps. taking the path of least resistence, but it still pushes against the muzzle crown. I shoot a lot of compensators also and this was the term before brakes become a sales word. The first one I had was made by Glen Eims, who owned a company called Modi-Fire. He designed the the Barrett brake. I asked him to make the best compensator he could for an AR. At the same time I had Olympus arms cut the carrying handle off and pin a weaver rail to an AR one of the first to use a scope without the handle (back in the 80's). Glen made a two pound compensator with no baffles (dams), only an expansion chamber. I was shocked. He laughed and said "brakes are highly overrated". The gun didn't even move when shot, off hand or prone.
The argument I love the most (and most ridiculous) in favor of brakes is the rocket or jet engine thrust one, but sparky is having trouble with vectors-- so I guess this wraps it up.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2012 at 19:15
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I'm sorry we got off the original thread but I enjoyed the knowledge of Muzzle B------.Thanks Dale
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2012 at 23:41
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:


The argument I love the most (and most ridiculous) in favor of brakes is the rocket or jet engine thrust one, but sparky is having trouble with vectors-- so I guess this wraps it up.



Not really I understand vectors. I just think it is way over the top.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2012 at 08:21
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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sparky- didn't mean you didn't understand sorry about that, meant that you didn't want to bring them into the discussion. most of the discussions on compensator either use a model/math from a mechanical analysis, very rare to see one from a thermodynamic one. When people say they do work they mean it figuratively and not literally. Literal use means do (verb) work (force thru a distance).  And they do do work in the literal sense. The vector explanation is important from the definitional point of view. In the days before the Barrett 50 the popular thing to do was modify a Boys anti-tank rifle for long range shooting. The Boys had a carburetor type venturi compensator which was very efficient but large and somewhat difficult to make. Other compensators were the then new LE comp from wilson and Clarks older pin gun type, both for handguns. ModiFires were different in that the vents actually directed the gas at a 45 deg. angle back to the shooter, and the first one I demoed was on a 340 Weatherby, and was definitely a hair parting experience. The change of the vector angle to 45 actually did give a braking effect as opposed to a 90 degree vent system, and was adapted by Barrett for their guns after a legal battle over the patents. Compensators with a 90 degree vector force only direct to the sides and must "capture" the gases with large surface areas, such as the JP mini tank model, or Sako's, which are2 of the better units in this class.
Compensators break the direction of the gas flow and redirect the amount of ejecta mass from the recoil formula so as to subtract the final results. Obviously the higher the ratio to the ejecta mass to the powder + bullet formula (as both are included in the mechanical recoil formula) the more the gas contributes. The reduction in recoil is subtraction, not the second order derivative which would be necessay to support the definition "brake" or deceleration.
In calculating the work and forces the gases can to, its necessary to use a thermo model to get force and work units. this includes how much work is necessary or available to do work on the bolt in a semi-auto, which will have different work figures available to the compensator, than say a closed system or bolt type system.
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