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45/70 vs 450 marlin

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Ok guy's I'm jumping on this thread for more detailed imput on comparitive ballistics for these game mashers. I plan to get one based on reloading versitility, max effective range and your personal experience. As stated in another thread I expect to get a Blr in one of these calibers. Not necessarily the latest thing out there depending on avalibility. So please share your data on bullet, bullet wt., powder trials, group size & distance and dispatch details such as shot placement, bullet performance, what you can count on and what to stay away from.
 
Squeezer I know this is your speciality so if you want to save repeating yourself in past threads maybe you can give a list of threads that I can pull up. I've already searched 450 marlin and was surprised that there were only three posts.
 
Thanks!     Get%20Your%20Popcorn%20Ready
 
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/04/2008 at 10:21
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While in the reading room I looked up these two rounds in Speer #14.  The short answer is not much.  The 450 was basically a way to get hotter 45/70 loads without reloading.   The 450 is basically a 45/70 +P, but seems to get an extra 100 fps with a shade less powder
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One interesting thing I have seen, is the company Buffalo bore who loads some of the hottest loads you can get for many rounds, actually load the 45-70 hotter than the 450.  Not sure why as the 450 brass is supposably better for the hotter loads, it is not by a lot but still more.
http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#4570
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/04/2008 at 12:35
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Originally posted by Sgt. D Sgt. D wrote:

Ok guy's I'm jumping on this thread for more detailed imput on comparitive ballistics for these game mashers. I plan to get one based on reloading versitility, max effective range and your personal experience. As stated in another thread I expect to get a Blr in one of these calibers. Not necessarily the latest thing out there depending on avalibility. So please share your data on bullet, bullet wt., powder trials, group size & distance and dispatch details such as shot placement, bullet performance, what you can count on and what to stay away from.
 
Squeezer I know this is your speciality so if you want to save repeating yourself in past threads maybe you can give a list of threads that I can pull up. I've already searched 450 marlin and was surprised that there were only three posts.
 
Thanks!     Get%20Your%20Popcorn%20Ready
 
 
 
.....I probaly can`t do any better with a search myself!
 
Well!........Use the `ol Benny Franklin method and draw a vertical line down the middle of two sheets of paper (one for each caliber and rifle), with headings of "pros" and "cons" for each rifle and/or the 45-70 vs the 450 Marlin.
 
The BLR is not available in the 45-70. So what you really need to do, since these two cartridges ballistically, are very close, is to decide on what rifle and narrow that down as I did, Marlin lever vs the BLR. Choose the rifle you want first, the cartridge will follow.....Here is my pros and cons list concerning the rifles..............
 
BLR Pros:
 
                 Bolt action strength and better operating smoothness.
                 Shorter lever throw.
                 When lever is operated, the trigger goes with the lever to prevent finger             pinching.
                 Takedown option available for easy storage with no loss of zero using a scout scope. Scout scope, chamber and barrel seperate as one unit.
                 Detachable box loading allows for pointed bullets with better bullet BC`s, trajectories and longer effective hunting ranges. A flatter shooter!
                 An optional spare detachable box which is loaded up and ready, is much faster for reloading than tubular reloading.
                 Takedown feature and detachable box removal allow for much easier access to the chamber, bolt face, barrel and magazine area for easier cleaning.
                 Recoil pad from factory is softer than Marlin`s.
 
BLR Cons:
 
                 Profile.... Large hump behind the receiver is not the best looking, but it needs to be tall enough to house the bolt, for the bolt to clear the hammer, and house the action`s internal mechanisms.
                 Lack of western cowboy type styling.
                 Higher price.
                 No 45-70.
 
Marlin Pros:
 
                 Classic western cowboy styling.
                 Chambers the classic 45-70 cartridge.
                 Guide gun (if chosen) is 37" in OAL; 40" for the BLR (though no difference in handling and speed between the two).
                  More barrel length options available
                  Lower price.
 
Marlin Cons:                
                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                  With the exception of the Hornady Lever revolution ammo, cannot use a wider variety of pointed bullets which restricts the reloader in that area. Flatter nosed bullets decrease the effective range, along with increased bullet drop trajectories.
                  Action is not as smooth or as strong as the BLR`s bolt action; IMO.
                  Trigger remains in the same stationary position when the lever is operated, which can, does and will, lead to some finger pinching sooner or later.
                  Even though a simple process, to clean and access the chamber and barrel from the breach, some breakdown is neccessary.
                  Unless customized, no takedown feature available.
                  Harder recoil pad from the factory.
            
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/04/2008 at 13:02
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One con (at least to some )you forgot to add is the whole trigger assembly travels with the BLR.  Some people really don't like that. 

Also how did you come to the conclusion the BLR is stronger than the Marlin?  Both are rated to shoot any magnum load you can make that is still within specs.  To me that is a non issue. 

I also really disagree with the so called finger pinching problem of the marlin.  If you finger is inside the trigger guard when you are running the action to cause it to get pinched then that person better take a time out and re-educate them selves on some firearms safety.  I have shot quite a bit out of mine 2 or 3 rounds quickly and never had a problem there.  Because my finger only goes on the trigger when I am ready to shoot, as it should be for all.

Also the Marlin recoil pad from the factory is a Pachmayr decelerator pad, doesn't get a whole lot better than those. 

Not trying to point one way or the other as far as what gun to get, just pointing out differences of opinion in my use of the Marlins over the last few years.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/04/2008 at 13:35
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

One con (at least to some )you forgot to add is the whole trigger assembly travels with the BLR.  Some people really don't like that. 

Also how did you come to the conclusion the BLR is stronger than the Marlin?  Both are rated to shoot any magnum load you can make that is still within specs.  To me that is a non issue. 

I also really disagree with the so called finger pinching problem of the marlin.  If you finger is inside the trigger guard when you are running the action to cause it to get pinched then that person better take a time out and re-educate them selves on some firearms safety.  I have shot quite a bit out of mine 2 or 3 rounds quickly and never had a problem there.  Because my finger only goes on the trigger when I am ready to shoot, as it should be for all.

Also the Marlin recoil pad from the factory is a Pachmayr decelerator pad, doesn't get a whole lot better than those. 

Not trying to point one way or the other as far as what gun to get, just pointing out differences of opinion in my use of the Marlins over the last few years.
..........................................The above list that I detailed, first of all, was my particular list of pros and cons, in calling them like I see them.
 
Some may not like the trigger travel when operating the lever with the BLR,,,, but I do. Many may have not have had their fingers pinched with the Marlins, but I know some that own Marlins who have. Ask Dogger too! If I`m not mistaken, he has had his fingers pinched when using his. When I dry rapid fired both the BLR and the Marlin, I can see how pinching may occur with the Marlin, with absolutely no possibility of that with the BLR.
 
Although operated with a lever, the BLR uses the same strong bolt type design found in a bolt rifle. The bolt type design is inherently stronger. We`ll just have to disagree here on this one. Not disputing the Marlins strength, but if push came to shove, my vote for added strength goes to the BLR.
 
The factory pad from Marlin may be the Pachmayer, but when you lay both rifles down on the counter at the same time,,,as I have done,,,,the BLR factory recoil pad without question, is softer than what is found on the Marlin guide gun.
 
 
 
 
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So Squeeze did you order the one with the pistol grip or the one without?  I am seriously considering a Browning BLR even though I have absolutely no need for one.  In the end I will probably get an AR upper in 7.62x39 but it is fun to look.
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What is your thoughts on trigger comparison? Travel if any, pull wt., adjustibility and crisp or slip. Do you think the Marlin barrel is slightly heavier? I'm more into function and performance than looks. I will likely go with stainless, but I gotta tell ya that 1886 is gettin hard to leave alone, and it is 45/70. If I got it I'd have to treat it like a Corvette. It only goes out on nice days. But that might be ok cause the 444 doesn't mind rough conditions.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/04/2008 at 14:11
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

So Squeeze did you order the one with the pistol grip or the one without?  I am seriously considering a Browning BLR even though I have absolutely no need for one.  In the end I will probably get an AR upper in 7.62x39 but it is fun to look.
..................I ordered the pistol grip and the takedown version. It will wear a scout scope. The pistol grip for me, is much more comfortable to shoot, is more wrist friendly and natural. If you don`t need one, then why seriously consider a BLR?
 
I`m different. I`ve never owned a lever and I don`t have a larger bore than my 375 Ruger...........Waa laa!,,,,The 450 Marlin......Although there are other reasons, the three primary things that really sealed the deal on my picking the BLR over the Marlin were;
 
Use of pointed bullets; aka box magazine type loading.
The takedown feature.
The BLR`s smoother action.
 
Classic styling and the emotional popularity of the 45-70, did not really enter the picture as much.
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I load the "#3" loadings for the 45-70. They can run up to 50,000 c.u.p. and are not for any of the modern lever guns. They are suitable for my Ruger #1 and have substantial recoil with 500 gr bullets. Be careful what you put in an 1895. All "#1" and "#2" loadings are safe. The #2 are near the pressure ranges of the .450. The Marlin is obviously built to withstand this pressure. The BLR even more.
I have only shot the #3 loads at 100 yards but they can be shot much further. Wind deflection is minimal. The only problem is the flight time and resulting trajectory. This can be handled with hold over. The Sharp's guys I know routinely shoot at 600.
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Yup, I guess that is kind of what I was getting at.  Even though it is listed as stronger you can still only load it to the lever action maximums, so I don't see how that is going to make any diff whatsoever. 
I have been shooting and loading for my Marlin 45-70 for 2 or 3 years now, they are great guns and are a very fun round to have.  It would be fun to have a BLR as well to really compare the two.  Comparing them side by side in a shop just does not do much for me on telling me which one it best.  But what else can you do unless a guy has enough money to buy both.

I wish the made the .450 in a BAR, I would be all over it then.  BARs are the best hunting rifle ever made in my opinion.
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:



I wish the made the .450 in a BAR, I would be all over it then.  BARs are the best hunting rifle ever made in my opinion.


I saw a .416 Taylor conversion several years back in a BAR, outstanding. I have seen talk of the .450 being necked down to .416, also. With that huge barrel, a .45 BAR would look like a Browning shotgun, awesome.
The BAR is one of my favorites, too.
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

Yup, I guess that is kind of what I was getting at.  Even though it is listed as stronger you can still only load it to the lever action maximums, so I don't see how that is going to make any diff whatsoever. 
I have been shooting and loading for my Marlin 45-70 for 2 or 3 years now, they are great guns and are a very fun round to have.  It would be fun to have a BLR as well to really compare the two.  Comparing them side by side in a shop just does not do much for me on telling me which one it best.  But what else can you do unless a guy has enough money to buy both.

I wish the made the .450 in a BAR, I would be all over it then.  BARs are the best hunting rifle ever made in my opinion.
 
 
Shocked     WOW     I don't know why it suprised me to see you feel that way, But I agree 1000%. I have a grade II 270 that has been my go to rifle for many yrs. It has always been remarkably accurate with factory and reload ammo. It's one rifle that has a permenant home.
 
 
 
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Hey Sarge!.................I know which one you`ll wind up with!!.....That 1886 in the 45-70, that you keep going back to, that your mind says,,,get it,,,,get it,,,,get it,,,,,get it,,,,get it,,,while that rifle says to you,,,,take me,,,,,take me,,,,take me,,,,take me,,,,,,take me dammit!!................Laugh................Roll%20on%20Floor%20Laughing
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Yea Squeezer,
He just in denial about it.  I've seen the stages before. It will not be long before it 's in the gun safe!!!  
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A 450 Marlin in a,,,,,,,BAR????................. Whoa Baby!!!............I like that one!!...Oh%20Yea%20Baby..........A Bonnie & Clyde short to medium range thumper special!...Semi%20Auto.......Saw that barrel down and make it a "Bonnie, Clyde & Squeezer Special"........
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Originally posted by Steelbenz Steelbenz wrote:

Yea Squeezer,
He just in denial about it.  I've seen the stages before. It will not be long before it 's in the gun safe!!!  
 
 
Anybody interested in a slightly used kidney? Maybe I can get him to hold it until I recover from the basement surgery. Seriously though I am trying to come up with a plan.
May happen, may not. Get%20Your%20Popcorn%20Ready
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Originally posted by Sgt. D Sgt. D wrote:

Shocked     WOW     I don't know why it suprised me to see you feel that way, But I agree 1000%. I have a grade II 270 that has been my go to rifle for many yrs. It has always been remarkably accurate with factory and reload ammo. It's one rifle that has a permenant home.


I love those things.  I got my 7mm when I was 15 or 16 and completely loved that gun.  My dad has one in .243. 

I have been eyeing the .338 for years.  I just can't justify buying it as is there is nothing I will ever hunt that my 7mm will not handle easily.  But if they had a .450 I would have had one a few years ago I am sure. 
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Originally posted by Sgt. D Sgt. D wrote:

Originally posted by Steelbenz Steelbenz wrote:

Yea Squeezer,
He just in denial about it.  I've seen the stages before. It will not be long before it 's in the gun safe!!!  
 
 
Anybody interested in a slightly used kidney? Maybe I can get him to hold it until I recover from the basement surgery. Seriously though I am trying to come up with a plan.
May happen, may not. Get%20Your%20Popcorn%20Ready
................................Use da,,,,,,,,,,,,"LAY AWAY",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,plan!!!!
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

Yup, I guess that is kind of what I was getting at.  Even though it is listed as stronger you can still only load it to the lever action maximums, so I don't see how that is going to make any diff whatsoever. 
I have been shooting and loading for my Marlin 45-70 for 2 or 3 years now, they are great guns and are a very fun round to have.  It would be fun to have a BLR as well to really compare the two.  Comparing them side by side in a shop just does not do much for me on telling me which one it best.  But what else can you do unless a guy has enough money to buy both.

I wish the made the .450 in a BAR, I would be all over it then.  BARs are the best hunting rifle ever made in my opinion.
.................When comparing any two rifles, lever, bolt or otherwise side by side in the gun shop, one needs to be a little instinctive, take enough time in working the actions, comparing trigger pulls, comfort, carrying, handling, shouldering both and simulate as best as possible what the rifle will be like on a hunt.
 
Whether I had the money or didn`t, I would rather buy one, trusting my knowledge and instincts, instead of buying two rifles.
 
Either one would have been fine, as both the Marlin and the BLR both, have their respective advantages. For me however and for what I was looking for and wanted, the BLR 450 Marlin was my choice...................I`m debating now, which scout scope to mount on it. I could mount one of the two 2.5-8x28 UCC EER Nikon Monarchs that I already have,  buy a 2.75x Burris scout, or buy the 2.5x Leupy scout...............
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Originally posted by Big Squeeze Big Squeeze wrote:

When comparing any two rifles, lever, bolt or otherwise side by side in the gun shop, one needs to be a little instinctive, take enough time in working the actions, comparing trigger pulls, comfort, carrying, handling, shouldering both and simulate as best as possible what the rifle will be like on a hunt.
 
Whether I had the money or didn`t, I would rather buy one, trusting my knowledge and instincts, instead of buying two rifles.


See to me that is like looking through a pair of binos or a scope in the store and trying to tell which is best.  I have learned the only way to test a rifle is to test it the exact way you would use it.  But that is not practical or possible in most situations, so I agree you just have to do the best you can in the store and hope for the best. 

I have gotten to the point where I will not buy a gun unless I try it out first.  One of the advantages of being a member at Front Sight, there are tons and tons of guns that run through that place from other members and intructors that I can try and play which at least gives me a head start on my decsisons.
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Well! .....Along with my instincts, I trust Browning a little too!
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My vote is for 45-70. I learned something last year about belted cartridges that I had somehow overlooked. The belt does not get re-sized by the dye when reloading. In some cases that may not be an issue however I have a custom 300 Win Mag made by GAPrecision and needless to say it was a bit tight chambering that reload but the true frustration did not set in untill I touched off that first round out of the rifle and found that I could not get the spent case to come out of the chamber. After calling George he explained to me that of the many possible 300 WM reamers available they use the one specified by the U.S. Navy and since the belt of the cartridge does not get re-sized I would need to use either factory new ammo or handloads made using factory new brass.  I was on the range with it today using my handloads with factory new brass and the last three shots at 200 yds were all in the same hole.  Needless to say the rifle shoots better than I do but I'm a tad shy of belted magnums now.  The only 45-70 I have at this time is an Encore pistol and it is quite a conversation piece and stops deer nicely.
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Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

My vote is for 45-70. I learned something last year about belted cartridges that I had somehow overlooked. The belt does not get re-sized by the dye when reloading. In some cases that may not be an issue however I have a custom 300 Win Mag made by GAPrecision and needless to say it was a bit tight chambering that reload but the true frustration did not set in untill I touched off that first round out of the rifle and found that I could not get the spent case to come out of the chamber. After calling George he explained to me that of the many possible 300 WM reamers available they use the one specified by the U.S. Navy and since the belt of the cartridge does not get re-sized I would need to use either factory new ammo or handloads made using factory new brass.  I was on the range with it today using my handloads with factory new brass and the last three shots at 200 yds were all in the same hole.  Needless to say the rifle shoots better than I do but I'm a tad shy of belted magnums now.  The only 45-70 I have at this time is an Encore pistol and it is quite a conversation piece and stops deer nicely.


Have you tried a Forester resizing die?  I was having the same problem with my BAR in 7mm and I tried a RCBS die and Hornady dies and finnally bought the Forester and it goes clear down around the belt and so far I have not had a problem with a resized with that die yet.  So maybe it will help you has well.


Edited by supertool73 - August/06/2008 at 17:10
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Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

My vote is for 45-70. I learned something last year about belted cartridges that I had somehow overlooked. The belt does not get re-sized by the dye when reloading. In some cases that may not be an issue however I have a custom 300 Win Mag made by GAPrecision and needless to say it was a bit tight chambering that reload but the true frustration did not set in untill I touched off that first round out of the rifle and found that I could not get the spent case to come out of the chamber. After calling George he explained to me that of the many possible 300 WM reamers available they use the one specified by the U.S. Navy and since the belt of the cartridge does not get re-sized I would need to use either factory new ammo or handloads made using factory new brass.  I was on the range with it today using my handloads with factory new brass and the last three shots at 200 yds were all in the same hole.  Needless to say the rifle shoots better than I do but I'm a tad shy of belted magnums now.  The only 45-70 I have at this time is an Encore pistol and it is quite a conversation piece and stops deer nicely.
........................Interesting!.............Before I got my compact 300 WSM, I had my 300 Win. Mag. Vanguard for 35 years. I reloaded thousands of 300 WM rounds and not once, did I ever have a problem with chambering caused by the belt.
 
I full sized every case, different case brands too, with a RCBS full length sizing die.
 
Appears to me that the reamer specified by the US Navy was the problem with your 300 and not caused by the belt itself. Personally, I wouldn`t shy away from any belted magnum.
 
The belt`s dimensions, if a cartridge is belted, had better be taken into account after firing upon the rifle manufacture, so that when the belt cannot be resized during the full length re-sizing process, it will still chamber and extract properly.
 
Unless I`m missing something and if the manufacturers use the proper reamer, I haven`t heard or read of any extraction issues due to the belt with the 270, 7mm, 300, 340 Wbys., the 7mm Rem. Mag., the 300 H&H, the 458 W/M, the 450 Marlin, or any other belted cartridge for that matter.
 
When I start reloading and firing the 450 Marlin, I`ll watch for any extraction problems.
 
 
 
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