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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/21/2017 at 10:25
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

The "suppressed vs non-suppressed" conversation is one of apples and cheeseburgers.  Once you start shooting suppressed, you'll shun all forms of shooting rude.

On the part about 800 yards, it isn't about the 800 yard shot alone, it is about the point-blank capabilities extending out to 800 yards if needed - without moving to a different weapon.

If you consider a possible survival scenario that sees you leaving your house and covering open ground, AR15 becomes a bit less persuasive, especially if AR10 is an option.  Is the gun heavier: a bit.  Is ammo heavier per round: yes.  Does my AR10 exceed your AR15 in kill radius: yes.  And for me, that is the game-changer.  Short of that, yes, AR15 in caliber of choice will suffice.

Military and police units deploy with weapons that cover CQB to long-ish range, there is good reason for that.  I see the AR10 as having massive benefit over AR15 with only modest downside (increased weight, less common spare parts.)

All this, of course, is less important on the local gun range.  Stay off all 2-ways ranges and away from hunting and this is as inconsequential as inconsequential gets.

By all means, continue the discourse, the topic is worthy of thought.


And Koshkin sucks.


Carry on.


but, I like the tripod on that .458...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/21/2017 at 10:38
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Yea, I noticed that too.

I bet on a range in California, ILya is medium pimp'in.  I live in the free state of Texas and still have people gawk at gear.  In Cali, he is probably roughly equivalent to a Norse god of war.

Or something.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/21/2017 at 11:24
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First, to get the requisite mud slinging out of the way: Rancid Coolaid sucks.

Now that we have taken care of that...

RC, I do not think we are in that much of a disagreement.  You get the same type of handling and speed out of your AR-10 as I get out of the Grendel.  That is probably due to better training and availability of equipment that helps tame the gun: suppressor, etc.  I do not have that option, so I stick with the peppiest gun/caliber that allows me to stay reasonably quick for follow-up shots.  The rest of your argument sorta devolves to "mine is bigger than yours" and that is not terribly educational.  Leaving the house and covering open ground with an ability to shoot something at 800 yards with proper terminal effect is undoubtedly less effective with the Grendel than 308.  However, the whole 800 yards business does not excite me too much, so that is not a requirement for me even though the Grendel can be stretched out there if needed.  Depending on the bullet in questions, 6.5Grendel has about the same energy at 600 yards as 308 has at 800 yards. I can live with that.

Until The Fix gets here, the Grendel remains my "if I could only have one" gun, but I re-evaluate that regularly.

On two way ranges: I make it a point to stay away from those and routinely recommend that to others.

On hunting: Grendel works fine on most things this side of large bears and bison.  Marginal on elk, but I distinctly recall Les Baer shooting an elk with the Grendel from 400 yards or so.  Not the shot I would take, but it can be done.  Generally, for the distances I restrict myself to, Grendel works fine, but 458SOCOM is a better choice.  Or I could simply take my 280Rem boltgun and be done with it.   

I'll address the rest later.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/21/2017 at 11:32
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We agree on most things, but cannot agree on everything, how would that be interesting?

All good here, carry on.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/21/2017 at 17:54
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Originally posted by BeltFed BeltFed wrote:

Originally posted by Sparky Sparky wrote:

Originally posted by nralifer nralifer wrote:

Because I like the 308 so much I want to see how well our bullets work in a semiauto platform. I would like to know what the internal length of your AR10 magazine is. I think the 150 Bulldozer and the 155 Palma Bullet would work well, but need to know what overall length to load these. I have an M1A to use to work up the powder charge.
My Armalite AR10 mags would take an overall length of 2.810. I'd be happy to help you test your semiauto loads for the 308 using my Armalite AR10T. Big Grin

Are you using the AR10 B magazines that are basically modified M14 magazines?
I am using the Gen I or As. I do have some Bs but I haven't used them.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/21/2017 at 19:41
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To wrap up:

KB, it is a 458 on a tripod, not a tripod on the 458.  The tripod is Varavon Short Baby (that is really the name) with the SSP-1 cradle from Precision Rifle Solutions.  It is not as sophisticated as Hog Saddle and the rest of the stuff PRS people use, but, then again, neither am I.  It works fine for my purposes and together with the short tripod makes for a very sturdy shooting rest that lives in my car.  It is also easy to velcro to my backpack for a field expedient shooting rest.

RC, there are plenty of well armed people in CA (all looking for a way out of here), but as far as general California population goes, I rank way above an average Norse God in terms of looking scary.  

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2017 at 00:19
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

To wrap up:

KB, it is a 458 on a tripod, not a tripod on the 458.  The tripod is Varavon Short Baby (that is really the name) with the SSP-1 cradle from Precision Rifle Solutions.  It is not as sophisticated as Hog Saddle and the rest of the stuff PRS people use, but, then again, neither am I.  It works fine for my purposes and together with the short tripod makes for a very sturdy shooting rest that lives in my car.  It is also easy to velcro to my backpack for a field expedient shooting rest.

RC, there are plenty of well armed people in CA (all looking for a way out of here), but as far as general California population goes, I rank way above an average Norse God in terms of looking scary.  

ILya

merely an identification that they were "together".  I have the same SSP-1 on the PRS medium tripod.  I also have a couple of Porta-Aim Vanguard tripods 7.5-13 inch adjustable. I like them better than bipods.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2017 at 12:23
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Here is an example of a CA-legal featureless AR (this is my 458).




Were I a Kali "subject," that right there would singularly make me move out of the state...tomorrow...with or without a job, housing, or any other plans secured.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2017 at 12:25
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...And, AR10s suck!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2017 at 14:54
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

...And, AR10s suck!
So says the guy that says, "you always need another gun", or something like that.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2017 at 15:42
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Originally posted by BeltFed BeltFed wrote:

Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

...And, AR10s suck!
So says the guy that says, "you always need another gun", or something like that.

Well, he did not advise you against buying one...

I think the point he is going to make is that you ned to acquire several AR-10s and AR-15s to conduct a proper evaluation. 

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2017 at 15:45
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Of course we all need multiple AR's because one data point is not a trend.  Big Smile

I'm trying to convince my wife right now that I NEED a tommy gun or else life as we know it will end. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2017 at 16:13
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I'm an enabler, so I'd never talk anyone out of buying most any projectile launcher of reasonably good quality. I just happen to like AR15s much better than 10s for a variety of reasons. Besides, given today's selection of bullets, there isn't hardly a scenario one could conjure up where a 7.62 bullet stops a beating heart yet a 6.5 bullet launched from a Grendel bounces off the same living being. I'm a bolt action guy to begin with, and ARs are not my favored platform, though I do enjoy playing with them just because variety is the spice of life.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2017 at 16:51
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I agree with that.

As far as semi-autos go, AR-15 is my platform of choice.  It did not start out that way, but it slowly won me over.

ILya 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2017 at 17:01
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Originally posted by sucker76 sucker76 wrote:

Of course we all need multiple AR's because one data point is not a trend.  Big Smile

I'm trying to convince my wife right now that I NEED a tommy gun or else life as we know it will end. 


I have a 40 cal SBR upper, it is great fun. A tommy gun would be fun, why not get a 45 cal upper for an AR?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2017 at 23:53
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Originally posted by sucker76 sucker76 wrote:

Of course we all need multiple AR's because one data point is not a trend.  Big Smile

I'm trying to convince my wife right now that I NEED a tommy gun or else life as we know it will end. 


I have a 40 cal SBR upper, it is great fun. A tommy gun would be fun, why not get a 45 cal upper for an AR?



I should.  I shoot my cousins Oly 45 AR and its a hoot.  I just acquired a 9mm AR.  The Tommy gun has just been my unicorn.  I've always wanted one. 

This statement kinda derails this thread so I'll get back on the subject of AR10's.  If I'm not shooting Mil surplus ammo will any AR15 trigger work in an AR10?  I understand the 308 specific triggers are only for added force to ignite hard primers. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/23/2017 at 10:14
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AR-15 trigger in an AR-10… some people do it and you are correct that as long as you are not shooting military ammo, you SHOULD be OK. 

I wouldn't do it… why put a non-spec trigger in your AR-10?  I know people who have done it, and as far as I know have had no problems.  But I wouldn't do it.  Even if I gave up shooting mil ammo, I would stick with an AR-10 trigger.  Personal thing… if you are comfortable with it, use no mil-spec primed ammo… should not be an issue.  However, one of the good reasons to have an AR-10 is to be able to use all forms of .308/7.62x51 ammo… at least to me.

But I don't like AR's much anyway...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/23/2017 at 14:49
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Thanks.  I found the 308ar site last night and that's been helping me weed through the differences in AR10 and LR308 etc.  I am going to build a 6.5 Creedmoor and reloading so military 308 primers aren't an issue.  There is a larger variety of triggers for the AR15. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/23/2017 at 16:04
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Having built a few of each now, I recommend you go with an AR10 trigger. As for AR10 vs LAR308, I've always gone with AR10, but no reason for that, just luck.

Figure out what you want the gun to do well, and build the gun to that end. I've done 18" and 20" and 16"; I now have the 16" and couldn't be happier. I lose a bit of velocity, but I don't pick up that gun if I need to make a 600 yard shot. But in tight spaces, it moves quickly, and at 20 rounds of 168-gr ass-kicking, I have a bit of confidence.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/23/2017 at 20:45
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Originally posted by Sparky Sparky wrote:

Originally posted by nralifer nralifer wrote:

Because I like the 308 so much I want to see how well our bullets work in a semiauto platform. I would like to know what the internal length of your AR10 magazine is. I think the 150 Bulldozer and the 155 Palma Bullet would work well, but need to know what overall length to load these. I have an M1A to use to work up the powder charge.
My Armalite AR10 mags would take an overall length of 2.810. I'd be happy to help you test your semiauto loads for the 308 using my Armalite AR10T. Big Grin

Well, finally got around to doing some preliminary loading using the Badlands 155.5 gr Palma bullet we make.  Used new Hornady 308 brass, CCI large rifle match primers, and settled on 48 grains of CFE223 with a COL 2.810.  Out of my M1A they fed without an issue, had an MV of 2879 fps.  That bullet has a G1BC of 0.515, and under standard conditions will stay supersonic to 1300 yds.  My gun has a 22 inch barrel and a muzzle brake.  Have not shot these for groups yet.  The load is 1.5 grain less than the listed minimum in the Hodgdon 2016 Annual Manual.  In the manual pressure for the minimum load is 50,900 PSI.  Stability at 2880 fps under standard conditions from a 1:11 twist barrel is 1.417


Edited by nralifer - April/23/2017 at 20:58
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/23/2017 at 21:26
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With that bullet, barrel length and COL try IMR 4895 at 42.7grs and 42.9 or Varget at 43.5 and 43.8 and compare accuracy with the loads you have. Trends show that the groups should be impressive.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/23/2017 at 21:40
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Will do. What primer and brass do you suggest?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/23/2017 at 22:27
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The primers you are running are fine. Brass is what you are willing to invest. For initial load test I try to stick with fired brass up to 3 loads. After that it goes in the hunting/trigger time bag. New brass (mostly) is not so consistent. For load testing and competitions I run new brass thru case trimming and sizing dies if I am forced to use it in a pinch.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/25/2017 at 06:28
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Originally posted by Sgt. D Sgt. D wrote:

The primers you are running are fine. Brass is what you are willing to invest. For initial load test I try to stick with fired brass up to 3 loads. After that it goes in the hunting/trigger time bag. New brass (mostly) is not so consistent. For load testing and competitions I run new brass thru case trimming and sizing dies if I am forced to use it in a pinch.

Finally have 20 plus once fired cases.  Because of potential chamber length differences between military and commercial 308 Win chambers neck sizing the brass as you suggest makes sense. Next round of testing will be with neck sized and trimmed brass. I debarred the flash holes before the first firing.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2017 at 09:32
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Well I got all the parts yesterday and put it together last night.  Hopefully I can go shoot it on my lunch break today.  They sure a big compared to an AR-15.  I need to get a hanging scale so I can weight it.   


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