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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2017 at 13:15
supertool73 View Drop Down
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I have been itching for years to get a AR-10 type AR. I finally went a head and did it.

Mega Maten upper and lower set with the 16" rail
F1 carrier group
Rainier Arms match 18" .308 barrel  I really debated between 16" and 18" but 3 oz was the weight diff so the 18" won out. 
Elfmann match trigger
JP buffer spring setup
Superlative arms adjustable gas block
Magpul PRS gen 3 stock.  Or a BCM carbine stock.  Will try them both out and see.   

I am super pumped about this one.  Yippee


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2017 at 15:27
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To break it in, overlube it. My general rule on AR10s is put on so much lube that you think you have too much, then you almost have enough.

And AR10s are usually overgassed, but don't worry about that till after you break it in.

Once you have it running well, you might never again take out an AR15 of comparable size.  I often leave the 223s at home now and opt for the 308, the slight increase in weight is more than offset by the significant increase in effect on target.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2017 at 16:47
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Appreciate the info.

The gas block I bought sounds interesting.  It supposedly bleeds off excess gas instead of shooting it into the upper.  Exactly how it does that I am not sure.  It is also adjustable, so hopefully it will fill that need well.  It adjusts from the front and comes with a long hex wrench to do that.  That alone sold me on it.  I have several other adjustable ones, but they all require taking the hand guard off. 


Edited by supertool73 - April/21/2017 at 10:31
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2017 at 19:12
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

To break it in, overlube it. My general rule on AR10s is put on so much lube that you think you have too much, then you almost have enough.

And AR10s are usually overgassed, but don't worry about that till after you break it in.

Once you have it running well, you might never again take out an AR15 of comparable size.  I often leave the 223s at home now and opt for the 308, the slight increase in weight is more than offset by the significant increase in effect on target.

I am quite the opposite.  I built myself an AR-10.  It is reliable (now) and accurate.  I almost never shoot it (I use it to test scopes if I think they are at their best on a large frame semi-auto platform) because I vastly prefer the handling of the smaller AR-15.  For off-hand practice, I shoot 5.56.  If I want precision, I take the Grendel.  When I want something that hits hard, I take the 458SOCOM.  All three handle about the same and are easier to shoot well than the AR-10.

I plan to replace the handguard on the AR-10 with an utlralight carbon fiber design from Brigand.  Maybe that will make it handle better.  If that does not work, I will put a heavy barrel on it and relegate it to being a prone/bench gun only.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2017 at 19:52
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

To break it in, overlube it. My general rule on AR10s is put on so much lube that you think you have too much, then you almost have enough.
After breaking in my Armalite AR10T I second this. In the beginning I was adding lube after every shot to the bolt carrier.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2017 at 20:12
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I just bought an Aero stripped upper/lower set to build a 6.5 CM on because I *cough* don't own a 308.  I have 2 creedmoors and love them. 

ST please add later how the gas block works out.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2017 at 21:15
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

I am quite the opposite.  I built myself an AR-10.  It is reliable (now) and accurate.  I almost never shoot it (I use it to test scopes if I think they are at their best on a large frame semi-auto platform) because I vastly prefer the handling of the smaller AR-15.  For off-hand practice, I shoot 5.56.  If I want precision, I take the Grendel.  When I want something that hits hard, I take the 458SOCOM.  All three handle about the same and are easier to shoot well than the AR-10.

I plan to replace the handguard on the AR-10 with an utlralight carbon fiber design from Brigand.  Maybe that will make it handle better.  If that does not work, I will put a heavy barrel on it and relegate it to being a prone/bench gun only.

ILya


ILya, I have immense respect for your opinions regarding optics, you possess a level of expertise I cannot comprehend. That said, I have used weapons in environemrnts and circumstances you have not. This point becomes startlingly clear on AR10 and warrants a bit of clarification. When I say "effect on target", some would call it stopping power, some would call it energy transfer, I would call it "make a living, moving thing stop moving forever." Our metrics differ. Greatly. I am a huge advocate for precision and accuracy; but would content that the round, even one exceedingly well placed, needs to have an effect on the target.

You often shoot for holes and locations, I often shoot for an end to voluntary movement post-impact. On those 2, a 308 has far less consequence for you than other factors. For me, what the bullet does when it hits is of huge consequence.

This is a great example of why a 223AI or 6.5x47 may be perfect for the range and less-than-ideal for other applications. neither diminishes the other, but what works well for punching paper might not work as well for other tasks.

For those considering an AR10, please consider its purpose!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2017 at 22:39
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I'm looking forward to putting some Badlands Bulldozers through my .308 AR...while the moving things I shoot at aren't a threat (other than to my ego), I want 'em down and quick.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2017 at 23:05
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

 
ILya, I have immense respect for your opinions regarding optics, you possess a level of expertise I cannot comprehend. That said, I have used weapons in environemrnts and circumstances you have not. This point becomes startlingly clear on AR10 and warrants a bit of clarification. When I say "effect on target", some would call it stopping power, some would call it energy transfer, I would call it "make a living, moving thing stop moving forever." Our metrics differ. Greatly. I am a huge advocate for precision and accuracy; but would content that the round, even one exceedingly well placed, needs to have an effect on the target.

You often shoot for holes and locations, I often shoot for an end to voluntary movement post-impact. On those 2, a 308 has far less consequence for you than other factors. For me, what the bullet does when it hits is of huge consequence.

This is a great example of why a 223AI or 6.5x47 may be perfect for the range and less-than-ideal for other applications. neither diminishes the other, but what works well for punching paper might not work as well for other tasks.

For those considering an AR10, please consider its purpose!

Before I proceed with this, please keep in mind that I am in now way going to try to dissuade anyone from getting an AR-10.  I think everyone should own one or two of these and a bunch of AR-15s (and a bunch of other platforms as well).

With that out of the way...  Jeff, I am in no way pretending to have the expertise you have and you are definitely a more competent shot.  However, I like discussions like this.  They always give me food for thought. 

I think I can make a pretty decent argument that the effective range of 458SOCOM is a pretty close match to my shooting ability when nervous or rushed.  As far as terminal ballistics go (I like this term, personally, but call it whatever works for you), I am not sure 308 has anything on 458SOCOM within a couple of hundred yards or so.  The 458 seems to be dead on reliable with a variety of ammo ranging from 200gr @2200fps to 500gr @1300fps.

If we are talking about stopping something at distances beyond the reach of the 458SOCOM, then why not stick with a bolt action of some sort.  Honestly, one of the reasons I ordered The Fix from Q is to have a better handling, compact, light and accurate 308 with AR-ish ergonomics.  

Now, you also have to keep in mind that while I live in California, my ARs are sorta molested into a condition that makes them California legal, while a bolt gun is not subject to most of these idiotic restrictions.

My plan once I get The Fix here is to start practicing all sorts of positional shooting with it and see how well it works for me.

Where am I making erroneous assumptions here?

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2017 at 00:10
supertool73 View Drop Down
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A .308 at 100 and 200 will be going 600+ fps faster than the socom. That equals a lot more hydrostatic shock. I don't have a 458 but i do have a 45-70 and have shot several deer and two elk with it. I have also shot several deer and elk with 308s and damage wise the 308 does a lot more damage internally. 45-70 in my samples made a nice sized hole, but the .30 cals had a lot more tissue damage around the holes.

Either one did the job, but the 308s made a bigger mess in the inside. Next step up to 28 and 30 cal mags, things get even messier. :)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2017 at 05:59
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Because I like the 308 so much I want to see how well our bullets work in a semiauto platform. I would like to know what the internal length of your AR10 magazine is. I think the 150 Bulldozer and the 155 Palma Bullet would work well, but need to know what overall length to load these. I have an M1A to use to work up the powder charge.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2017 at 10:22
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2.820 is the max for the magpul .308 mags
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2017 at 10:30
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Okay, in no specific order:

1.  I've not owned/operated a gas gun I would consider "precision", so that doesn't account for much in my thought process.  I have a couple that are moderately impressive, but nothing straight-up "precision."  To that end, I don't grab a gas gun for a precision shot, so my context is a bit different, but I'll wade in just the same.

2.  The Socom carries 7 rounds?  In a magazine that is mostly "fixed" (I built a gun for a guy in California, I though the bullet-button was one of the dumbest things in a long and proud California tradition of dumb things.) An AR10 or AR15 is limited to 10 rounds, correct?  That's still 3 more rounds, each of which can be life-saving.

3.  I've spent little time with a Socom, but do note that recoil, like that of a good gas operated shotgun, does cause momentary loss of target visibility.  I don't like that at all.  Given that an engagement with that rifle might be life-n-death, loss of target visibility is a big, big part of why I don't reach for high-recoil rifles when I am inside someone else's kill radius.

4.  You outline 3 considerations (offhand, precision, and defense) and 3 separate guns for them.   Were it necessary to consolidate those 3 into just one weapon, the AR10 would be the logical choice.

5.  This is a biggy and definitely plays a part in our disparate view: my rifles are always - or "almost always" suppressed.  You could suppress a 458, but that'd take much of the appeal away, I would guess.  You say your guns are easier to shoot well than is an AR10, I would strongly disagree, but much of the disagreement is the suppressor.


In my world, single-use tools are often necessary, but multi-use tools are preferred.  I will, in most cases, give up a small measure of precision to be able to do 3 things well with one gun rather than taking 3 guns.

I am near the tipping point in the "if you could only have one rifle..." debate.  For many years, my answer was a resolute "300WM bolt gun". Now, my answer might be an 18"-barrelled AR10.

If I ever spend any real time with a Nemo 300WM AR, I might be a convert. Sure an 18" barrelled 300WM is basically just a 24" barrelled 308, but I know what a 308 can do inside 800 yards, which serves me very, very well.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2017 at 11:33
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I agree with most of what you said and, either way, you have a well reasoned argument.  

Still, let's add some of my personal preferences and California flavor to this.

By the time this year ends, bullet button is also going to be illegal in CA and if you choose to use it you will have to register your gun with the state as an assault weapon (assuming you already have it; you can no longer build one with the bullet button).  No sane person is going to register anything, so the way around it that keeps you in compliance with these spectacularly idiotic laws is to convert your ARs to "featureless" configurations.  "Featureless" means that you have a proper detachable magazine, but you can not have a bunch of other things: pistol grip, flash hider, forward grip, collapsible stock and a coupel of other things.

Magazine capacity is still limited to ten (apparently, according to the wise California politicians and the booger eating morons who vote for them, I am harmless with a disfigured AR, but the moment I add a pistol grip and flash hider, I am going to just become a mass murderer on the spot).

Here is an example of a CA-legal featureless AR (this is my 458).


On suppressors: I can not have one in California legally.  Period.  And as you correctly noted it has an effect on things (if I could have one, a suppressed 458SOCOM could be a lot of fun).

On magazine capacity: I can get a 10 round 458SOCOM magazine marked as such.

On muzzle devices: since I can no longer have flash hiders and I have a thing against loud brakes, I am running linear comps on almost everything.  They do not do much of anything with recoil, but at least they push the sound away from me.

Without a suppressor and without a pistol grip, the effect of the recoil with the 458 and with the 308 is about the same.  You have a momentary target blackout.  I timed myself and I can deliver an aimed controlled pair on to the target at about the same speed with a 458 chambered AR-15 as I can with a 308 chambered AR-10, despite the fact that the AR-15 is lighter.  Perhaps, it is a training issue. Perhaps, it is simply because the recoil impulse is different between the two.  458 kicks more, but the recoil impulse is slower.  308 has a sharper recoil and seems to want to get away from me more.

On one tool:  for a defense gun, I can not get myself to care about terminal ballistics at 800 yards.  If I were looking for a semi-auto that can do everything in a pinch, to me the 6.5 Grendel strikes a reasonable compromise.  It does not have the same power as the 308, obviously, but it is closer to the 308 than to the 223.  My 18" Grendel sends out a 123gr bullet at an average of 2530fps.  For comparison, with the 308, an 18" barrel typically spits out a 168gr bullet at about the same velocity from an 18" barrel.  That is a big difference, but I can make a pretty decent case that within 200-300 yards the terminal effects on two legged critters are close enough. 

Assuming a rifle configuration that is legal in the People's Republic of California, I do not have target blackout with the Grendel (or 6.8SPC or any of the intermediate AR cartridges), like I do with the 308, despite it being a handier and lighter platform.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2017 at 12:13
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The "suppressed vs non-suppressed" conversation is one of apples and cheeseburgers.  Once you start shooting suppressed, you'll shun all forms of shooting rude.

On the part about 800 yards, it isn't about the 800 yard shot alone, it is about the point-blank capabilities extending out to 800 yards if needed - without moving to a different weapon.

If you consider a possible survival scenario that sees you leaving your house and covering open ground, AR15 becomes a bit less persuasive, especially if AR10 is an option.  Is the gun heavier: a bit.  Is ammo heavier per round: yes.  Does my AR10 exceed your AR15 in kill radius: yes.  And for me, that is the game-changer.  Short of that, yes, AR15 in caliber of choice will suffice.

Military and police units deploy with weapons that cover CQB to long-ish range, there is good reason for that.  I see the AR10 as having massive benefit over AR15 with only modest downside (increased weight, less common spare parts.)

All this, of course, is less important on the local gun range.  Stay off all 2-ways ranges and away from hunting and this is as inconsequential as inconsequential gets.

By all means, continue the discourse, the topic is worthy of thought.


And Koshkin sucks.


Carry on.

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That stock, by the way, is...wow...um...yea...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2017 at 12:26
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Wow, I am so glad I don't live in California.
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There is something deep within the human psyche that puts a premium on a false sense of security or safety. Whether it be idiotic things like classifying suppressors as NFA items instead of hearing protection, bizarre restrictions on AR configurations or TSA regulations, there are those who will find a way.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2017 at 15:11
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"The illusion of security" carries much comfort for those unwilling to secure themselves.

For those of us with some skill in personal and property security, this is an ever-present amusement, whether in someone's misinterpretation of what we do or in their complete lack of self-awareness in what they do.

Suppressors are one humorous area, the "secure" area of an air port is another.

If you feel safe, you are safe.  And if something bad happens, just keep saying, "someone will come save me."
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MDR
I want this to be my next .308.
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That one is just a .223 though.    Wink
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MDR FDE rifle chassis
Comes in 5.56 or 7.62x51 NATO
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2017 at 15:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2017 at 23:23
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Originally posted by nralifer nralifer wrote:

Because I like the 308 so much I want to see how well our bullets work in a semiauto platform. I would like to know what the internal length of your AR10 magazine is. I think the 150 Bulldozer and the 155 Palma Bullet would work well, but need to know what overall length to load these. I have an M1A to use to work up the powder charge.
My Armalite AR10 mags would take an overall length of 2.810. I'd be happy to help you test your semiauto loads for the 308 using my Armalite AR10T. Big Grin
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Originally posted by Sparky Sparky wrote:

Originally posted by nralifer nralifer wrote:

Because I like the 308 so much I want to see how well our bullets work in a semiauto platform. I would like to know what the internal length of your AR10 magazine is. I think the 150 Bulldozer and the 155 Palma Bullet would work well, but need to know what overall length to load these. I have an M1A to use to work up the powder charge.
My Armalite AR10 mags would take an overall length of 2.810. I'd be happy to help you test your semiauto loads for the 308 using my Armalite AR10T. Big Grin

Are you using the AR10 B magazines that are basically modified M14 magazines?
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