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300 wsm- velocity not up to par?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/25/2007 at 19:21
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 I've got a new toy 300 wsm mauser action, 24" Douglas barrel, Timney trigger. This is the 2 nd one i've loaded for. The other was a 1885 Highwall. I'm still under max on the powder, the bolt's gettin a little sticky and the fps is about 250 under what the book reads. Not much better than an 06. Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/25/2007 at 20:46
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Whne the bolt "gets sticky" you're about 60 to 62kpsi pressure.  At 65Kpsi the primers fall out.    Time to back off the charge weight. 
 
Things to consider;
 
The only barrel that got the velocity readings listed in the manual was the one used to test the loads.
Your chamber could be larger.
You could be using different brass.
You could and likely do have a different lot of powder from that tested.
You have different primers.
Your barrel is on the loose end of acceptable land-groove dimension.
 
Try a different powder, brass with smaller capacity, and hotter primers.  Be willing to accept the possibility that you may not be able to safely achieve the result you want.
 
Reloading is 100% pure science and chemistry....................................except for all the magical stuff that  just happens  :)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/25/2007 at 21:14
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Thanks.
 I've been reloading for quite sometime. All factory guns.  All i've ever used is CCI & winchester primers. They are using winchester in the book.
 So without sounding real stupid . What is loose end of acceptale land -groove dimension?
  I'm having a hard time getting a good reading of the col with my Stoney point, it feels like the bullet is catching on something sometimes. So i' m wondering if being to far off the lands could be part of the cause?
 If the chamber was large would the brass be harder to resize?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/25/2007 at 21:31
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is it a real mauser 98 action or a modified mauser, (winchester, remington, kimber, ruger etc)??
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/25/2007 at 21:42
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It's a sporterized bruno vz24 with a #1 douglas match grade barrel. The work was supposed to have been done by Kimber. It hadn't been fired when i got it. It shoots good groups i would just like to acheive more fps than 2900 with 150 gr
 Thanks
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/25/2007 at 21:46
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 A sticky bolt can sometimes be caused by normal pressures in extremely soft brass.
A chamber cast can tell you if there is something unusual about the chamber/ throat/leade as well as the true land/ groove dimensions, at least as they measure in that portion of the barrel near the chamber. If you can boil water, you can make a chamber cast of Cerrosafe.
 Another possibility is that you have a very rough bore.  If it fouls easily you should consider lapping it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/25/2007 at 22:33
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Thanks.
 The patches have quite a bit of blue on them after 2 groups.  I use Montana x treme bore solvent , i think i'll run some patches with JB bore compound thru it. Is that a good idea? Can a rough bore slow it down that much?
 I looked up that Cerrosafe at competitor , i can handle boiling the water but the rest of it might be a little too technical for a cowboy! And i'm not sure about the lapping.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/25/2007 at 23:32
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Ditto on everyone`s suggestions above!! I would certainly try changing all of your components and try many combos first. The last resort would then be to change to a new barrel.................To show how radically different two rifles can be chambered in the same caliber, my case is the exact opposite of your situation. I also own a 300 WSM. My reload chrono results have not only have exceeded my expectations, but helped me win a few bets too!...........These loads were carefully increased for my rifle..............70.2gr. IMR4350 w/150 gr. Sierra SPBT @3155 fps. average. This is the maximum, as the bolt lift was a little more difficult, but no other pressure signs were evident from the case bottom or from the primers. A full grain reduction had no bolt lift problems. At 69.2 gr. the average MV was 3105 fps....................71.5 gr. Rel19 w/180gr. Sierra SPBT @ 2948 fps. Again, there was a little more difficulty to raise the bolt, but no other pressure signs were seen. I have achieved 2994 fps. with another combo using the 180 gr....................69 gr. Rel 19 w/200 gr. Nosler A/B @ 2828 fps. This as the others, I consider to be maximum for my rifle! All are great hunting loads!!......................................Want a real shocker???ShockedShockedShocked The loads above were achieved from my M77, 300 WSM Ruger Frontier compact, with only a 16.5" barrel!!!!!!!...Apparently, my rifle has a higher tolerance for increased charges, meaning more velocity using Sierra bullets and A/B`s before the real pressure signs come to bear............Another chrono also confirmed the above results!!! Figure that one out!!! WhackoWhackoWhackoWhacko
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/25/2007 at 23:46
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I forgot to mention in my above post, that I have used JB Compound for years and years! Prior to the above chrono results, I began using JB Bore Brite after using the JB Compound!!!......Needless to say, I noticed a difference in the bore after using the normal compound followed by the Bore Brite!..........It absolutely shines like a mirror finish!!!........Does that translate into more velocity??? Well! It certainly won`t detract from it or cause a decrease!!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/26/2007 at 07:52
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good holy god something is wrong if you cant get more than 2900 with a 150gr bullet, im getting almost 3000fps with 180grbullet, and thats not even a max load. i use reloader-19 with cci magnum primers.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/26/2007 at 07:59
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Have several mausers, turkish rebuilt in 8mm, deutsch in 30-06, bruno in 6mm and none will reach the velocitys of a ruger or remingtion, even though they all have top quality and  aftermarket barrels, correct chambers, and throats. I think a lot of the mausers have softer actions, and can stretch from the bolt thrust so I don't push them. Deutsch military surplus in the 8 even causes lifting problems. I think it has a lot to do with the flat bolt face, of the bolt, and a slight set back on firing showing signs of high pressure.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/26/2007 at 08:48
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Thanks for all the response.
 I think i'll keep shootin & scrubbin and see if things smooth out. Has anyone ever tried Tubb finalfinish bore polishing system and would it be worth a try.
 I don't know of a gunsmith close to where i live or i would take it to one & have it looked at.
 I have a 300 saum that pushes a 150 around 3100 fps & my 325 wsm a 180 at 2975.
 I know you're thinkin  what do you need a 300 wsm for? I don't, just seeing which one i like best. I was expecting around 3200 with the 300 wsm, i was over that with the highwall but it had a 28" barrel.
 I was wondering about the action and Dale you answered that for me Thanks.
 Maybe i'll make her into something else, just have to figure out what with a magnum bolt face.
 Thanks again everyone.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/26/2007 at 09:44
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One other thing to consider is that the 150 grain bullet may have too little bearing surface for the barrel you're shooting, resulting in a failure to build sufficient pressure.
 
Side step that for a moment.
 
Get Tubbs Final Finish and follow the instructions.  Douglas barrels are not lapped and the Tubb treatment will cut fouling alot.
 
Side step that for a moment.
My VZ24 338-06 with a Shilen chrome moly barrel exceeds Sierras charge weight per velocity readings by up to 150 fps.   It has a proper dimension chamber.
 
Back to things in order;
Douglas barrrels are slow in comparision to most factory barrels and most all custom barrels.
Do the Final finish thing.
Go to a 180 grain or 190 grain bullet and work up a load.  See at that point if velocities are more in line with the charge per velocity readings in the manual.
 
A large chamber will cause more effort to be excerted in resizing brass.
 
From Dales post.
If your VZ24 BRNO mauser has a set back bolt or lugs, throw it away.  The BRNO is notoriously strong, a Remington will be destroyed before the BRNO gives up, so if you check and find the bolt lugs or receiver lugs set back, ditch the rifle right away.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/26/2007 at 10:45
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 The brass from this rifle goes through the resizer die easier than the brass from the highwall.
 I'm not sure what you mean by set back lugs, the way they were made or from pressure?
They look fine to me no marks or wear. I apologize for my ignorance on some of this but i would rather not learn the hard way!
 I was only able to chrono it the one day because it's been to cold most days for the chrono.
 I been going by pressure signs sticky bolt and primers, although the primers haven't been flattened to much.
 Thanks again.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/26/2007 at 11:03
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in some cases the bolt thrust or back force can "peen" the locking lugs of the bolt into the lock lugs of action, causing an excessive amount of distance. so the condition becomes dangerous.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/26/2007 at 11:04
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No one has mentioned this but my loads that are right there in the summer sometimes tumble 100-150fps when shot in cold winter weather. Some powders like hodgedon extreme are pretty good for staying consistant while others are terrible. Something to maybe consider. I don't recall you mentioning what powder you are using....not a ball is it?

Focus

Edited by Focus - December/26/2007 at 11:06
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/26/2007 at 12:09
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 RL15, RL19, IMR 4064, IMR4831   Winchester magnum primers
  The loads i chrono were 60.5 gr rl15  & 59.5 Imr 4064 both with 150 gr nosler ballistic tip
  both around 2950fps the 4064 load was a little slower
 Thanks
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/26/2007 at 12:10
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 i forgot to mention it was 34 degrees
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/26/2007 at 12:16
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Your lack of velocity is probably a combo of your barrel and the cold temps!!!........Chrono those same loads in the summer and see what the difference is!!! A 300 Win. Mag should well exceed the `06, regardless of weather temps.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/26/2007 at 14:11
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None of the powders you listed do well below 50 degrees F.
 
If you'l find a Hodgedons equivilent powder you'll see less velocity loss below 50 degrees and alot less under 40 degrees.
 
Stay away from Vhiti Vhouhri powders, they don't do well in cold temps at all, regarding velocity retention.
 
BTW, alot of research has been done on primers as a pressure indicator and all of it indicates that the use of primers as an indicator is not a good thing.
That sticky bolt is telling you that the max safe pressure for the action has been exceeded.......by alot.
 
Spend time with the chronograph as a load density indicator, and graph the velocity based on X load increment increase = Y velocity increase.
When you see something like 2/10th grain powder charge increase giving you 75fps velocity increase, there's room to continue.
When that same 2/10th gives you 10fps you're over max and need to back down.
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/26/2007 at 16:24
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i havent ever had any luck with any bullets in the 300's wsm or winmag weighing less than 165gr, and had best success with the 180gr
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/26/2007 at 17:25
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Well your a grain under max in the nosler book for both loads.....they also post velocities with a 26" barrel. I think when its warm you will be about 75-100fps off there posted velocities with the same powder.

Focus
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/26/2007 at 17:26
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i think my book is done with a 24" barrel in the 300wsm its 26" for the 300winmag though
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2007 at 15:10
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You might want to check out the information on Richard Franklin`s website on 300 wsm he is pushing them past 4000 fps
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2007 at 15:13
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wow thats nuts! gotta be hard one throats at that speed
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