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300 win mag headspace

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avery View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote avery Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/17/2013 at 13:42
How do you determine the actual amount to turn the die out so that I can neck resize until my brass is fully fire formed? Do you have a method u use?

Apprechaited ,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sakomato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/17/2013 at 14:07
Unfortunately no written in stone method will work because of the variations in dies and chambers
 
However I would
 
1.  Raise the ram and screw the die in until it hits the shell holder
2.  Lower the ram and unscrew the die (counterclockwise) ONE FULL TURN
3.  Mark the case with magic marker from the belt up the case about 1/2 way with a line (don't color all the way around just a thick black line)
4.  Size the case and see if it appears to have contacted the black line and take a measurement to see if the shoulder moved.  The measurement is more important since the die could lightly contact the case body but without enough force to squeeze it
 
5.  If there is no shoulder movement, adjust the die in 1/8 turn
6.  Size the case and check for shoulder movement
 
Repeat steps 5 & 6 until the mark on the case is smudged and the measurement on the shoulder is larger
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 300S&W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/17/2013 at 15:17
 
  Sako,
  With that method do you have any idea of what percentage of the neck gets resized?  And it does vary depending on the rifle chamber and fl die,right?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote budperm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/17/2013 at 15:46
There Are Neck Onlyt resizing Dies available too.  I have several Lee neck resizing Dies and neck crimping Dies...
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avery View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote avery Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/17/2013 at 18:03
Has anyone ever had there seating die crush their brass? I have hornady.... did 5 and 2 were crushed... has never happened with my RCBS and 30-06... Seams really hard to seat I would say excessive force hence the crushed brass....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sakomato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/17/2013 at 18:34
Originally posted by 300S&W 300S&W wrote:

 
  Sako,

  With that method do you have any idea of what percentage of the neck gets resized?  And it does vary depending on the rifle chamber and fl die,right?


About 3/4



Many reloaders normally resize this way, say it aligns the neck in the center of the chamber neck

Sometime I do it with the Lee Collet by inserting a washer on top of the shell holder



avery, if your FL die seating die is crushing the necks then it is possible you have it adjusted down too far and are crimping

Bad idea
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3_tens Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/17/2013 at 18:38
1. Did you chamfer the the case mouth, If not you should and you need to lightly lube the inside of the neck so the bullet will not bind.
2. Check the thickness of the neck. Some brands of brass are thicker than others. Saami specs are a range and not a dimension.
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avery View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote avery Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/17/2013 at 19:45
It was the norma brass never fired, I will turn the die out some more and make it up with the top adjestment and see it that makes things different. But I did 5 and 2 were crushed 3 of them seam ok.... But like I said all seamed to have excessive force as compared to my 30-06... I will also try lube but have never had to do that before in my long reloading History of 6 months :)
      
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avery View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote avery Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/17/2013 at 20:01


Hope that works
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sakomato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/17/2013 at 20:19
Originally posted by 3_tens 3_tens wrote:

1. Did you chamfer the the case mouth, If not you should and you need to lightly lube the inside of the neck so the bullet will not bind.
2. Check the thickness of the neck. Some brands of brass are thicker than others. Saami specs are a range and not a dimension.




Like 3_tens said, put a good chamfer on the case mouth. I have done the exact same thing as shown in your pics because the expander ball was overly hard to insert in the neck on the upstroke. Need lube on the expander and the inside of the neck

Course eventually you will want to get rid of those expander type dies!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote budperm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/17/2013 at 20:36
When I first started reloading one of the FL dies I bought was just barely in spec on the small size and my chamber, I found out, in spec on the high side.  This equated to crushing a few fired casings until i figured it out.  Called and talked to Lee (Die Maker)  They were nice enough to accept for credit the small Die and hand select one closer to nominal..... No more problems after that..... until its time to anneal the casings again.
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avery View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote avery Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/17/2013 at 23:56
Sorry if I'm miss spoke or I'm miss understand which Is quite possible but this happened when seating the bullet, I have removed the bullet Before I took the pick..... Or are you guys saying because of my full lenght die this is happening when I seat my bullet....

Also this case has a unspent primer in it can i just punch it out or will it go off?

Is there a different type of die to you that has a different expander?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote avery Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/17/2013 at 23:59
Thanks again for the help much appreciated!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alan Robertson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/18/2013 at 00:39
Originally posted by SVT_Tactical SVT_Tactical wrote:

My 300 winny likes h1000 best. I'm shooting 240gr SMK and 230 Berger Hybrids.  I did load some sizzle rounds once..... 130gr TTSX barnes...... they move!
A friend told me just a couple of weeks ago that the 300 Winny was originally created with the 130 gr. in mind as a varmint cartridge. Who knew. The 200 gr. AB is great, as is the 208 AMax Hornady
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sakomato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/18/2013 at 02:33
Originally posted by avery avery wrote:

Sorry if I'm miss spoke or I'm miss understand which Is quite possible but this happened when seating the bullet, I have removed the bullet Before I took the pick..... Or are you guys saying because of my full lenght die this is happening when I seat my bullet....

Also this case has a unspent primer in it can i just punch it out or will it go off?

Is there a different type of die to you that has a different expander?


Then your seating die body is too far down. Back the die back up a full turn and then you can readjust the seating stem back down to the bullets.

If the case in the pic has an unspent primer in it, throw the whole case away. Who cares if it has a live primer in it. It takes a very specific tool like a firing pin to get one to go off
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote budperm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/18/2013 at 06:03
Sorry Avery it was my mis-understanding about when the crush happened. 
I'm curious, do the bullets your using have boattails or flat bottoms? 
If your having alot of resistance while seating bullets, it sounds to me like you've sized the neck down too much. 
 
I will say that I almost always only neck size and only Full Length resize before anealing or if I don't dedicate the reloads to one specific gun and need to return the fired casings to SAAMi spec.
 
With neck only resizing you get the advantage of fire forming the casing to match your chamber.  Bullet seating in neck sized casings doesn't take much force at all (I always chamfer the inside of neck).  If your going to use the loads for hunting or have them in an environment with high vibration and impact shocks then in fact it is recommended that you also crimp the 'bullet to casing' interface to improve bullet retention.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote budperm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/18/2013 at 06:10
I'm just trying to fill in supply some additional info to help.  I have to admit that I believe Bob (Sakomato) to be one of the top 3 reloaders on the OT and the Best at explaining and sharing that info in a way a simpleton (myself) can understand.  Bob has really embraced the science of reloading...
WinkI think he has a Flux Capacitor too!
 
 
So the moral of my story is take Bob's word over mine every day.  I just hope I shine a little side light on your issue...Howdy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/18/2013 at 06:22
Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

Originally posted by avery avery wrote:

Sako, have you noticed an increase in accuracy from the unfired brass to the 3 times fired brass? Or is this strictly to make you brass last longer? Also to set up my full length die would marking the neck with a marker and slowly turning the die down until the contact point seams to be where the neck meets the shoulder a good method for setting up my sizing die?


MAINLY sizing for a slight crush fit is to make the brass last longer and prevent case head separations. Case head separations occur when the brass if forced to repeatedly expand a lot toward the shoulder from setting the shoulder too far back

case head separation


when the case if fired if the case shoulder has to expand a long way to the chamber shoulder, the case will thin at the pressure ring. The pressure ring is where the interior of the case goes from being solid at the case head to the open interior space of the powder column



Most case head separations occur in belted cases because the case manufacturers do not worry about a tight fit at the shoulder and manufacture belted magnums with more shoulder gap than an unbelted case. I have reloaded for a lot of different rifles and calibers and would estimate that the average shoulder gap for a belted case is close to .020" and an unbelted close to .006". So there is no way to get around a lot of initial case body brass stretching on new cases with a belted magnum. BUT once you fire and keep the case close to chamber dimensions then the problem will not be exacerbated.

IME accuracy comes from consistency. It is possible to get a good combination with NEW cases and a certain set of powder/bullet/seating-depth specs. But that will change when you have fire formed the brass, so you will have to fine tune again to get consistency with the expanded brass. Even though the brass has not fully expanded on once fired brass, there is not enough of a difference to be able to tell an accuracy difference from the same load in twice fired, 3 times fired etc brass. So you will see the biggest change from NEW CASES TO ONCE FIRED fired.


Marking the shoulder is not a good way to do it. You are pushing the flat surface (actually slanted) of the interior die shoulder onto the flat surface of the brass and probably won't get much wiping of the mark until you have pushed enough to make the surface move enough to move laterally against each other (too far). Set the rifle up on the bench and the bolt closing force will let you know when the shoulder is being pushed back.

It helps to put witness marks on the die/lock-ring/press because even a small movement will make the case go from a crush fit to a loose fit



Also when you are sizing close to a crush fit, the setting can change during sizing a bunch of cases. There are a lot of linkages on the press and in the die that can move or be compressed with the forces being applied. So after you get it where there is just a little more force necessary to close the bolt than on an empty chamber, size 5 or so and the recheck in you gun.

EDITED - reread and I didn't make sense    
 
 
 
(now he's just showin' off...)
 
Great info, Sako... your information and presentation are superb, Sir.  Thank you...  if I could come spend a couple weeks with you, I might take up reloading again. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sakomato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/18/2013 at 10:19
Originally posted by budperm budperm wrote:

WinkI think he has a Flux Capacitor too!
 
 
 
No!  But I need one!
 
Feel like I want to Flux something today!  Whacko
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote budperm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/18/2013 at 10:34
Smile Careful don't want to get your wick dirty.... awfully hard to explain to teh spousal unit...
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