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300 whisper AR for night hog hunting

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/19/2010 at 18:14
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Hello all, I have been building a new upper for my AR-15 for deer and hog hunting. It is a 300 whisper and is a versatile round and I will have 3 loads for it.  220gn subsonic at around 1050fps, 125 sierra soft point at around 2200fps and 160gn leverevolution bullet at 1950-2000fps. I plan on using the 125gn for deer, the 160gn for supersonic hog hunting and later the 220gn for subsonic hog hunting at night.  I am trying to decide on what optic to put on this rifle. The barrel is 16" and has been installed in an all camo Remington r-15 vtr.  I am trying to keep my optics choice below $500 and can't seem to find a scope that will handle all the challenges created by this round. Here are the criteria.

1) somewhat compact. short
2) light weight
3) illuminated reticule (mil dot or some sort of bdc) for hold over with 220gn
4) semi target turrets so I can dial in the extreme drops for the 220gn
5) low end no higher than 3x
6) good in low light
7) ample MOA


here is what I have found and the pros and cons of each as I see them.

1) trigicon 3-9x40.
    cons: outside budget/ no target turrets
    pros: excellent low light and everything else :)

2) Zeiss conquest.
    cons: not much MOA, no illum reticle, no target turrets
    pros: good glass, light, compact

3) elite 4200 3-9x40. 
     cons: no illuminated reticle or fire fly in this model, no target turrets, not much moa i think
    pros: price, great glass, weight ,

4) elite 4200 2.5-10x40 and or 2.5-10x50 fire fly.
     cons. no target turrets and no mildot or bdc.  can't remeber moa
   pros, great glass, fire fly, not too heavy but getting longer

5) Vortex, pst's are a little higher than want to spend, low end model not good enough glass.

6) Burris, the Tac30 seems to fill all the criteria, Light weight, semi target knobs, short, good moa, illuminated BDC, only prob is I do not know how it compares glass wise and would do in low light.


7) Hawke endurance 30. new models are heavy. They only use l4 lit reticle, no mildot or bdc in this model. the sidewinder gets these reticules but gets even heavier.

8) Nikon, can't seem to find any illuminated reticules in their line up.

9) what I have now, Millett DMS1 1-4 x24. this seems good power for hog hunting but not sure about deer hunting. Also, will a scope of this size objective be as bright as one with a 40mm or 42mm.  The specs say 6mm exit pupil at 4x. I am sure that a 3x9-40 will have more exit pupil all the way down at 4x but does that mean a brighter image. I have been reading where anything above 6mm get thrown out by your eye. If so, then a larger objective on a different scope still won't seem any brighter as this scope already maximizing eye size inlet. If that is the case, then a bushnell 2.5-10x40 at 6x shouldn't be any less bright than 2.5-10x50. now at 10x the 50mm may be brighter but that is at 10x and I would have to look at the exit pupil #'s. who hunts at night with 10x anyway.

so If there is a scope I should look at please point me. if this is really the grounds for two scopes then maybe I use the millet for hogs and a regular scope for deer. if Iam wacked just say so Big Smile

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/19/2010 at 19:49
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I have a 300 Whisper (bolt gun) used for hogs and deer, great for certain circumstances.

Mine is topped with an IOR 2.5-10 FFP with large elevation turret (lots of elevation adjustment) and the new illumination (just the center dot, not the whole thing - and not so bright as to be useless in low light.)

I did your scheme backwards, subsonics first, then supers.  (If you reload, let me know, I have some good subsonic recipes for 200-, 208-, 220-, and 240-grain rounds.)

The glass is fantastic, the reticle is FFP so at any power I can do the drop on the reticle, the build quality is good, the scope is durable, and everything has worked as advertised.

I recommend you get an FFP as shots will be taken at various powers and being able to do bullet drop on the reticle (and quickly) is invaluable.

Avoid the firefly, in my opinion, it is a heavy reticle and not ideal for accuracy.  That said, it is important, especially with hogs, to drop the animal clean and silent, squealing hogs send all their friends running, hogs that die quietly don't disturb their friends.

Finally, though a pain in the ass, I highly recommend you invest in a suppressor.  My Whisper with subsonics has little more report than a Daisy Red Rider.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/19/2010 at 20:30
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yeah, I have to do the suppressor. I am looking to do a form 1. I have the idea just need to spend the money to set up a trust and pay the tax stamp. One thing that has been stopping me is that I have heard that if you do, you give up your right to search and seizure. Not sure if true, need to look further into it.

Yes I reload. I have 100 whisper brass made from resized lake city 223. Waiting for my H110 to arrive. I have some 220gn Sierra match kings and some Hornady amax. I think I have some Berger 210 VLD's as well. I load for a 300 win mag for 1000 yard matches down at Manatee gun club. I haven't started loading for the whisper yet but should be up and running soon.The subs will be mostly later for when I get the can.

 I will look into the IOR. I know they are a bit pricey. Do you have a 2nd option you think might work? How is the glass on the Tac30 burris? It seems to have decent adjustment.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/20/2010 at 09:28
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The Conquest or Bushnell would work.

You really do not need as much elevation adjustment as you might thing, that is a 300 yard gun with supersonics and a 200 yard gun with subs; you don't need 15 mils on the turret.

And, FYI: when you move to suppress the upper, I'd look at an adjustable gas block.  The 6.8, like an AR10, is over-gassed, even more so when suppressed, you will dent the hell out of your new brass (limiting reloads) unless you regulate the gas flow.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/21/2010 at 09:50
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I have a barrel and gas block from TP555 over on the whisper forum. It is in the pistol position and has settings for high, low, and off. which Bushnell would you recommend. they have the 2.5-10 with illuminated and then the 3-9x40 regular duplex. both 4200's. I thought i saw where the regular duplex isn't that great for low light. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/21/2010 at 10:47
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At this point, it is the "lesser of the evils" in my opinion.

For the drop on the subsonics, you really, really "need" an FFP, else you'll be dialing in dope constantly (my dope change from 100 yard zero to 200 yard shot is 4.4 mils.)  I would get a mil dot reticle scope and keep it at or near ranging power at most times.  A 3-9 will be cheaper than a 2.5-10 - and the 2.5-10 nets you little in that mag range.

I like duplex on hunters, but keep in mind, the ballistic swing you get from the Whisper is quite large, the scope needs to be able to deal with many more things than most scopes can.  My advice: FFP, good illumination, don't worry much about total elevation - past 250 yards, your subs aren't going to kill anything.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/21/2010 at 17:37
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i found this. not illuminated though. no mildot but nice glass

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1931802&gonew=1#UNREAD
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/21/2010 at 23:49
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You didnt mention if you were going to be hog hunting at night and wanted the illuminated reticle for that. If so, the Trijicon Accupoint or Meopta Meostars are tough to beat. 300 yd shots at night arent really realistic. 100 yd shots are tough enough. Scopes with thick crosshairs like Leupolds heavy duplex work ok at night too. Thats really the part most people struggle with, seeing the crosshairs. Thin black crosshairs on a black hog with a dark background is a real challenge.  

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/22/2010 at 10:02
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Actually, he stated explicitly that the subsonics would eventually be used for night-time hog hunting.

The Accupoints are nice, I would recommend the mil dots and not the triangle as you will definitely need drop on the reticle if the scope has capped turrets.




Edited by Rancid Coolaid - July/22/2010 at 10:52
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/22/2010 at 20:27
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thanks guys for all the advice. I think i will have to save up for a used accupoint.  This seems like a very solid option. Mr Coolaid Big Grin you stated that your IOR has just the center dot illuminated on your mildot reticule correct?

Mike
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/22/2010 at 20:43
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and yes, I will eventually being using subs once I get a can. Until  then, I will be using the 160gn hornady's for hogs. I should be good for about  180 yard Point blank range according to my calculator assuming 1950fps at muzzle and 150 yard zero. This puts me 2.5" high at 100. One other thing I was thinking. Where I will be hunting here in FL, it will be rare to have anything over a 100 yard shot.  If the opportunity does present itself for a 200 yard shot, I will probably want to dial up the magnification. If so, wouldn't it also make sense that since most BDC's and mildot's are set up to be accurate at one mag setting, that I could just learn the drops for the subs at 8x for example and just assume that if I have a long shot to make, i will need to zoom up to 8x to get my holdovers accurate and also have the proper mag for shot placement. This would help get around the ffp hurdle.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/22/2010 at 23:32
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ok, so after digging around a bit more I have a few thoughts that I would like some feedback on.

1) the quintessential low light scope is the Trijicon 2.5-10x56. lets look at why. Good glass and a very high Exit Pupil (mm): 16.3 - 5.6.  that's 5.6 at 10x. It weighs 20.8oz so a little on the heavy side.

2) Next pick from Bill Wilson is Burris Fullfield Euro 30 3.5-10x50.  Exit Pupil (mm): 14 - 5  Weight (oz): 15. He said this scope has great low light performance. It is lightweight, and has 3 illuminated reticules.  I am unsure I like the 3.5 magnification start value. I preffer the 3 or better yet 2.5 like the Bushnell below for better field of view.

3)  rounding out top 3, Bushnell elite 4200 2.5-10x50  Exit Pupil (mm): 15 - 5  Weight (oz): 22. notice the high exit pupil on 10x. the 40mm version of this same scope drops to 4mm. Has rain guard, just a little heavy though. Great piece of glass for money.


Now, lets look at some 3-9x40's

1) lets look at Trijicon 3-9x40  Exit Pupil (mm): 13.3 - 4.4  Weight (oz): 12.8. This is supposed to be a great all around hunting scope for night. Falls just under the top 3 it seems due to lower exit pupil. That correlates with how I have seen all these scopes ranked.

5) Another classic great scope Bushnell elite 3-9x40  Exit Pupil (mm): 13.3 - 4.4  Weight (oz): 13.  almost identical to trijicon. Not best for night due to reticle but used here to show light transmission for a 3-9x40

6) Zeiss conquest 3-9x40  Another great low light performer but sadly no illuminated reticle.
Exit Pupil (mm): 13.3 - 4.4. same exit pupil again for a 3-9x40.

Now, Burris Fullfield euro 30 and Tac 30. these both come in the 3-9x40 configuration but look at the exit pupil #'s ( 13 - 5) That's better than the other 3-9's and the same as the 50mm scopes albeit at one less mag setting. The scope only weighs 13oz. and is 30mm with target knobs and illum ret. Does this mean that the 3-9 fullfield should be better than the trijicon 3-9x40. Is that exit pupil spec a typo from Burris? I know Bill likes the 3.5-10x50 but haven't seen any reports on the 3-9x40.  It should be right up there with the 40mm scopes all things being equal. And that brings glass into equation. Assuming to scopes have same exit pupil #'s, will the better glass scope be brighter. what happens when the scope with lesser glass has better exit pupil #'s?

Mike


Exit Pupil (mm): 13.3 - 4.4
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/22/2010 at 23:36
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I meant to say that the 3-9x40 Burris should be right up there with the 50mm scopes. That was a typo. How do you edit post?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/23/2010 at 05:57
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Originally posted by mfilippello mfilippello wrote:

I meant to say that the 3-9x40 Burris should be right up there with the 50mm scopes. That was a typo. How do you edit post?

make one more post (50) and then you can edit.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/23/2010 at 14:55
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Yes, the center dot is all that illuminates.

Be advised, the 2.5-10X is quite large, a tough fit on an AR (doable, as the picture shows.)





Also, again, i recommend a reticle that can do bullet drops on the reticle rather than the triangle reticle if the scope has capped turrets (as the 3-9 and 2.5-10 do.)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/23/2010 at 16:56
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yeah post #50. editing here I come.

Nice hog by the way. Is that your 300 whisper? I thought you were running the IOR or is that a different gun. I get the feeling you have a lotBig Grin


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/23/2010 at 17:03
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No, that is a 6.8 with 2.5-10.






As for having " a lot", not really, far fewer than some here.


Edited by Rancid Coolaid - July/23/2010 at 17:04
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/23/2010 at 17:43
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I have a Millett DMS on a Bushmaster AR and couldn't imagine anything better for low light close range hog hunting.
As for deer, I think you should try it on targets at the ranges you will encounter in the field to see if will work out.
My guess is you may already have a very capable scope for what you want to use it for.
Sure you can spend a bunch of cash and get a better scope but if the max range is less than 200 yards or so the DMS will kill them graveyard dead IMHO.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/23/2010 at 20:49
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Originally posted by WYcoyote WYcoyote wrote:

I have a Millett DMS on a Bushmaster AR and couldn't imagine anything better for low light close range hog hunting.
As for deer, I think you should try it on targets at the ranges you will encounter in the field to see if will work out.
My guess is you may already have a very capable scope for what you want to use it for.
Sure you can spend a bunch of cash and get a better scope but if the max range is less than 200 yards or so the DMS will kill them graveyard dead IMHO.


this is what I was wondering and why I posted it in the bottom of my 1st post. I just have never compared it to any of the other scopes listed as the best of the best for low light hunting. I know the Millet glass isn't the best and without a larger objective, couldn't see how it could hang with the others. It does list a 6mm exit pupil so it has to be decent. That is why I also was asking how much exit pupil means compared to light transmission (glass quality)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/24/2010 at 11:15
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The subsonic game is a whole new endeavor, and the Millettt ain't the best fit for a rifle that swaps power for quiet.

Granted, it is small (the Millett) and illuminated; however, 4X leaves me a little less-than-powered for a rifle that will be called upon to put a bullet in a target .5 inches in diameter at 100 yards.  Ol' boy above took a round that nicked his spine but failed to sever it, he took 5 more before he finally gave up - and those rounds were MUCH more than a 300 Whisper (subsonic) will throw.

If the priority now is not subsonic, almost anything mentioned thus far will work (including the Millett.)  Once you step down to 1050FPS or lower, the whole thing changes.  I agree that the Millett is fine for supersonic close range (I had one on a SOCOM for awhile that served just that purpose), but be ready to need something new later.  That might be a good plan: leave the Millett on now and save for something to put on when you go subsonic, something FFP and with target turrets.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/25/2010 at 09:38
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ok, got it. you are right. for supersonic use, the needs are a little more relaxed. I will be shooting supersonic before I go sub. Well I guess I could shoot either, but without the can, it really makes no since to shoot sub. If I use my DMS1 now, I can save up for the right scope for later. It will just be part of the whole cost of getting a suppressor.

Even though the accupoint 3-9x40 is almost the right scope, it still lacks a ffp illum reticle. As Rancid Coolaid has stated the IOR seems to be the only thing that fits the bill. A ss3-9x42 would work if they came out with illum reticle. The trijicon would make an awesome all around scope for deer and hog hunting as long as I stick with supersonic. That is what I will be doing now, but I might as well save those funds and put them toward the IOR.

Thanks Rancid coolaid (first name?) for all the help and explanations, and all the other posters who have contributed. This why I come here to get good info.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/25/2010 at 09:56
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Ive been following this post because anything dealing with hog hunting gets my attention. I finally get what your wanting to do. I have zero knowlege of the 300 whisper but it seems to me that at sub sonic speeds that bullet will drop pretty fast which is why you want Mil dot, BDC  or target turrets. Adjusting target turrets might be the way to go, I dont think you will be able to see mil dot or bdc marks through the scope at night. I for sure cant see anything except the center reticle, or dot in the case of my Trijicon. I dont have your eyes so I could be wrong but either way, it would be tough. I can see why you want the "silent" bullet if your taking down multiple pigs in one group. Im usually only after boars which are by themselves most of the time, so thankfully, I dont have your dilemna. If I were you, I would just try to get close enough that i didnt need to worry about bullet drop. They arent that hard to sneak up on at night if you have the wind in your face. I tried to add a pic to this post but cant figure out how to do it. Thinks its because I dont have enough posts.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/25/2010 at 11:38
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Originally posted by mfilippello mfilippello wrote:

As Rancid Coolaid has stated the IOR seems to be the only thing that fits the bill.




Check your fire!


At no time did I say IOR was the "only" fit, there are others, but IOR is what I found fit my needs best (I shoot only subsonic for now, moving to supersonic - which is far easier.)

All my remarks are geared toward the eventual subsonic usage - as that is the real value of a 300 Whisper for hogs.

An SFP scope (like the Trijicon) will work, you just gotta be aware of power setting.  I have a 5.5-20 on a hog gun and it works great, mil dot for bullet drop if I don't want to click it in.

There are many, many options (USO, Nightforce, S&B, Horus, etc); my purpose was to tell you what I did and why.  You might have an entirely different set of circumstances and thus need something else.

The IOR is a great fit (can't see the whole reticle, don't need to, sit 100 yards out and wait for the horde to arrive.  Stupid to be stalking in the woods at night, pigs can't see well, but they don't need to see you to kill you) but there are other fits.  I highly recommend my setup for subsonic 300 Whisper work, but others will recommend others and they'll have reasons.

Another consideration can be the 3-9SS with a laser designator.  Don't shine it in their faces and pigs don't mind the light.  I run mine fairly diffuse now (not focused on a really small spot but spread over a few feet at 100 yards), works great, no illuminated reticle needed.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/25/2010 at 13:41
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ok, didn't mean to say only thing. however, from all my searching, it is actually the least expensive option that features ffp, illuminated reticle and is light weight with target turrets.  I sure there are others but USO, Night force, S&B, are all out of my price range. The ior seems to be the least expensive scope that has those features. I think there were some barska's, but that is a little below budget. Smile The SS 3-9x42 fits the bill as well as mentioned just without the Illum. I was thinkng of getting a ND# so maybe this might still be an option. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth but you seem to have a good grasp of what out there. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/25/2010 at 20:39
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No problem, just wanted to be sure it was clear that other options are available, but yea, all other good options are allot more $$.
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