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2x20 or 1.5x24 Compact ACOG?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/22/2006 at 03:23
SunsetSam View Drop Down
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I want to get a Compact ACOG for my FN PS90.  The rifle is my home defense gun, but will be used mostly for target shooting and plinking.  I probably won't be doing a lot of quick shooting.  I'm 44 and starting to need reading glasses.

 

I've already ordered the 2x20 with the red crosshair, but probably still have time to change the order.  I went with 2x because 1.5 just didn't seem like enough.  I chose the crosshair for more precise aiming.  I don't think I would like the triangle.

 

I'm wondering if the 1.5x24 would be better for my older eyes.  It has 3.6 inches of eye relief instead of 2.1 inches for the 2x20.  Would the longer eye relief be any easier to focus on or is this really anything to worry about?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/22/2006 at 03:41
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http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=1504&PN=1

 

Did you check out the sticky posted by a most excellent Marine?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/22/2006 at 03:45
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Thanks.  I saw that one.  Great post, but didn't seem to specifically apply to my application.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/23/2006 at 21:15
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Originally posted by SunsetSam SunsetSam wrote:

I want to get a Compact ACOG for my FN PS90.  The rifle is my home defense gun, but will be used mostly for target shooting and plinking.  I probably won't be doing a lot of quick shooting. 

Home defense gun where do you live Iraq?

 

Wrong scope, wrong cartridge, wrong gun.  Why so you may ask.

FN P90 5.7x28mm  (note 5.56x45 nato is .223) so what you have is a small moderately fast cartridge designed for a sub-machinegun. Read my lips Large Slow .45 acp bullets do quite well stopping someone at close range in self defense. 12 guage shotguns do quite well at stopping someone at close range in self defense. You go cry self defense after going after even the vilest of thugs with a (assault rifle, sub machinegun look alike) and the courts will crucify you. As a hunting weapon the 5.7x28 has little or no use. Common deer rifles are .308 .243 30-06 and stronger. For small game people use a .22 or a .22 mag and its cousin the .17

If I were to scope a sub machine gun and I did not scope the suppressed M10 .45acp that I had for over 20 yrs I would put an aimpoint  or an eotech on it or the Trijicon tri-power that is currently on sale on samplelist. ACOG scopes are made for rifles that have some hope of achieving lethal strikes at distance.

By the way next time you drive through a small town (doesn't matter which one) run into the store and ask them for a couple of boxes of 5.7x28mm ammo.  

 

BAD CHOICE ALL THE WAY AROUND --- SORRY 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/24/2006 at 16:11
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In a sad way its really funny that the very tools that were made for self defense is looked upon as somehow too much or unfair to use on somebody trying to take your life  That is some twisted logic, that if applied to other situations would come out like (I need to dig a hole...I know lets use a shovel, its made just for holes! No cant use a shovel feller...thats unfair to the hole, infact it might be cheating...use a spoon instead its more sporting)

  Self defense is not a sport, and dead here is just as dead as dead anywhere else by violent means. And if its a good shoot, you are in no more trouble in reality if you saved yourself with a AR15, M1911, or Barrett Light .50 . In fact there has been a few documented cases of legally owned machineguns being envolved in a self defense situation because that was what they had with them on the way back from the range, or in the case of a certain HK employee, a demonstation.

It didnt go badly in the courts because of what they used.

 In case you are wondering what background I come from, 21 years as a Texas peace officer, owner of NFA weapons since 1983(was a 01 FFL & SOT) Have repped for VT Kinitics...who make the SAR21 assault rifle and Ultimax MKIII light machinegun, Been to HK training div schools (MP5, Dynamic Entry,Explosives Entry) Im Second Chance save #802

and so on....The first gun I ever pulled the trigger on was a Govt .45 at the age of 4, by age 9 I had one of my own(a .45 combat Commander) First AR15 by 12, first .44mag pistol by 16.   I have carried a variety of calibers on duty in my adult

life, the oddest of which was a.303 Enfield the day we had to go deal with feral hogs at a golf course. 

 

The thing is I too own a Five Seven Pistol, and a PS90 SBR as well as magnum pistols/rifles of the full power .30-06 and .308,8mm, 7.5x55 types.

 

 There isnt anything wrong with the 5.7 for use in what it was made to do...and it works wonders on Javalinas too lol

It would be safer to use a 5.7 in a city apartment than a .357Mag with 158gr SP ammo by the way.

 The PS90 is as accurate as a Colt SP1 at 100 yards(sub 2") and effective out to 200 yards, flat shooting,would make good use of a low magnification optic, easy on the ears(relatively) fired indoors without hearing protection like most self defense situations are going to be, very little muzzle flash to make you see blue spots, only 2/3rds the recoil of a 9mm carbine so easy to teach kids and spouses,(even the infirm) to be effective with it. 

 

 While the .45 is great and I wouldnt hesitate to defend myself with one withen its effective range , I also after extensive shooting of the 5.7x28  wouldnt hesitate to use one of them either(5.7 has passed every NATO test it has been put through)

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/24/2006 at 18:22
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Welcome to The OT, P99guy!!

 

Ever been to T.E.E.S.??

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/24/2006 at 20:38
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IMHO the PS90 is an excellent option for HD. Why? Small (more manueverable in tight spaces), light, little recoil (faster followup shots), mild muzzle blast, *no* muzzle flash, easy to fire effectively single-handed or from prone and little fear of overpenetration (50rds w/o reloading doesn't hurt, either...) How much practical difference would we see between, say, the 5.7 SS197 load w/40gr V-Max bullet @2,100fps and someone's fav 9mm/.45/.40/etc load presuming identical shot placement on the same BG? Hard data, please...

That aside, I agree that magnified optics are probably a waste on the PS90, especially if used for HD. IMHO you'd be better off w/the CQB optic of your choice (Trijicon, Aimpoint, Eotech, etc...)

Tomac

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/24/2006 at 23:07
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Thanks P99guy and Tomac.  That just about lists all my reasons for wanting to use the PS90 for home defense.

 

I have a Glock 23 in .40 S&W, so I have the big bore handgun area covered.  With my level of training and proficiency I feel that I would be more accurate in a stressful situation with the PS90.  The rifle also gives me more room to hang  a light and laser off of.  I really don't want to put anything on the Glock.

 

I do like the idea of a shotgun.  They are probably the ultimate in stopping power and intimidation factor, but shotguns have the followning disadvantages:  high recoil, limited cartidge capacity, long length, they are loud, and multiple pellets mean multiple projectiles to account for if you miss.  I would be less likely to practice with a shotgun because that is just not the kind of shooting I do.

 

I agree with the Massad Ayoob thinking that you should give some thought to how your weaponry will look in a trial.  My only real concession to that line of thinking is that the PS90 is PC green and not evil black.  I don't know if the PS90 will win or lose me any points with a jury over a .40 Glock, a .45 ACP, or a Mossberg 12 gauge with a full length magazine tube.  If I ever do have to go to trial I hope I can get P99guy as an expert witness.

 

My first choice of sight for this rifle would be an Eotech or Aimpoint.  Trouble is, due to the design of the rifle these sights sit very high.  The reticle of the Eotech will be about 5 inches above the boreline.  There will be a custom ACOG mount that puts the sight more than an inch lower.  I think the 2x ACOG will be the best for the shooting I will be doing most of the time.  I'll see if it is a tremendous handicap indoors and if it is I'll get something else.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/24/2006 at 23:46
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Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Welcome to The OT, P99guy!!

 

Ever been to T.E.E.S.??

 

Thanks Cheaptrick.       Nope, never been to T.E.E.S.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/25/2006 at 07:03
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SunsetSam, if you're worried about sight height I solved that by using MagazineParts dual mag setup. Not only does it provide excellent cheekweld when using raised optics but also gives you an additional 50rds onboard that's a lot faster to access than an extra single mag.

Lasers: IMHO the Laserex internal laser made for the P90 is the best way to go w/the PS90 as it puts the laser emitter directly below the bore (and at very close range the laser gives a more accurate aiming point than high sitting optics). You can see the emitter directly below the bbl here plus the laser button & battery cap below/behind the trigger and you can also see the M3-LED taclight I have mounted:

 

Here's a shot of my current setup where I've replaced the Eotech w/the Trijicon Tripower (w/o decent BUIS I'm leery of relying on any optic that's 100% dependent upon batteries/switches/circuitry):

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/25/2006 at 07:55
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Thanks Tomac.  Cheek weld isn't really the concern with sight height.  I'm more concerned with the additional error that is inherent when the sight is far above the boreline.  I'm sure the MagazineParts mag clamp is a good product.  I would be concerned how it would look at a trial though.  One fifty round magazine is bad enough

 

The Laserex laser looks like a slick setup, I'm just not ready to do surgery on my PS90 yet.  Right now I'm leaning towards getting a Lasermax Unimax laser:

 

http://www.lasermax.com/product.php?id=104

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/25/2006 at 13:01
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The better optics choice is still the trijicon tripower or the aimpoint or the eotech because of the limited range of the cartridge and the ammo is still difficult to come by and the good stuff is highly restricted to LE and MIL.

I too hate that it is current thought,  but in court it is often about appearances and you are dealing with people who have never had their life threatened.

Now every old farmer and everybody else has a pump 12 ga. and it is commonly accepted as a self defense weapon. If you like the novelty of a bullpup with a 50 round mag fine buy one but the appearence of a "assault rifle" is seen as overly aggressive by a large portion of the population sad but true and you now have Democrats in both houses in charge of making law.  Buy a clue and be selective in your choice of self defense weapons.  As for Texas Law Enforcement I did my internship with Texas Highway Patrol in 1978-1979 ... and hold an advanced cert from TECLOSE. I suggest you understand that Law Enforcement Officers have the appearance of REASONABLY needing weapons seen as aggressive.  I also suggest you forsee the oncoming swing to the LEFT.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/25/2006 at 13:19
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 "Buy a clue and be selective in your choice of self defense weapons" "I suggest you understand "

 

Your skating on being insulting, and suggesting you are the only one that knows what they are doing, rather than the possibility of a differing opinion. My office is in a Tx courthouse, I see Judges & DA's every day( and we talk gun issues on occasion strangly enough)I even parues though them legislative updates.  If you would like to bring up a specific case  ______ vs.________ where this has been the deciding factor leading to the conviction of a normal citizen in a court in Tx....we are all ears.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/25/2006 at 18:43
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Nah, he's being insulting

 

I see where you are coming from my imaginary friend, but I'll still use the PS90.  I think I have a better chance of being hit by lightning than of ever having to use the PS90 for self defense.  So, does it really matter?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/27/2006 at 13:43
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Well I've been throught the investigations that go along with shooting at bad guys, (so insulting or not), ( like it or not) you will find that you have a hard time convincing most people that a PS90 is not offensive rather than defensive. People carry pistols for self defense they wear them without any intent of a specific act. People go get their rifle when they have (premeditated intent) thought it through and decided to go kill something.  While rifles and shotguns can be defensive weapons they are not commonly carried in todays society. A long gun as a self defense weapon sounds to me like grabbing grandpa's shotgun because a burglar is breaking into your home. A $1500 bulpup assault rifle with a 50 round magazine with a $1000 military scope on it does not hold the same appearance.  Now if you were in law enforcement and it was your tactical team weapon and happened to be the only gun in your car when a robber ran out of the bank it would be looked on as reasonable and prudent. But as a civilian you are at risk of appearing overly aggressive and that may indicate that you may have had intent to provoke or escalate a confrontation that a reasonable and prudent person would not have. This may sound like wording but there is a swing to the left that slapped us in the face in the last election. Having said that I will add that within your own home you will probably get away with it but stay inside. In Iowa recently someone was defending himself at his home with a semi auto AK 47 and carried the fight outside during the course of the gunfight shooting the retreating perp as he retreated to his car still shooting at the homeowner. The perp died the homeowner went to Jail, hasn't gone to court yet.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/27/2006 at 15:37
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Been there , done that, Im not in Iowa...in a nutshell that answer counted as: 1 sidestep, 1  total disregard,1  reiteration of previous material,and for 2.5 points ,a sprinkle with some confuse the issue for good measure. Bravo! Bravoooo!

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/27/2006 at 15:58
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I also made the choice of using my ps90 as my home defense weapon.

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Texas Penal Code "

§9.42. Deadly force to protect property.

A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

    (1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and

    (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

      (A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

      (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and

    (3) he reasonably believes that:

    (A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or

    (B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury."

     

    Now just remember that Criminal Mischief during the night time includes toilet papering someones house then think for a minute when the last time someone was sentenced to death for toilet papering someones house by a judge and jury in Texas.

    What you are missing is that Texas law is superceded by Federal Law.  Violations of Federal Law are investigated by the FBI and cases are filed in Federal Court bottom line you still wind up in jail.

    TCLEOSE Practice Test

    75, What are the two constitutional rights that are usuall violated in excessive use of force or deadly force cases? 4th amendment and 14th amendment ...
    www.texaspolicecentral.com/Test.htm - 1k

     

     

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/27/2006 at 16:31
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Originally posted by jmz5 jmz5 wrote:

I also made the choice of using my ps90 as my home defense weapon.

 

Welcome to The OT!!

 

Man, that's a strange looking weapon system!!!

I feel like I'm looking into the future..........

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/27/2006 at 16:46
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Unless you've seen one up close it's difficult to imagine just how small (26" OAL) the PS90 is. Here's a shot of a factory PS90 next to a Mini-14 w/shortened bbl & folded stock.

Tomac

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/27/2006 at 17:41
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http://fivesevenforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5076

 

Just saw this and wanted to post it.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/27/2006 at 17:47
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jmz5, you have a better picture than that, don't you?  It took me a while to notice, but that is a SBR (short barreled rifle) isn't it?  All perfectly legal of course with the proper registration if you live in a state that allows it.

 

Nice pic Tomac.  That illustrates the size of the PS90 nicely.  I had a Mini-14 once and at 34 inches long I felt it was too unwieldy to consider for home defense.

 

I chose the PS90 because I suck with a handgun without pressure.  How many laws are there for a gunfight?  I imagine the first is:  Have a gun.  The second could be:  Survive the gunfight.  I'll worry about what happens after, well, after.

 

I do make concessions for political correctness because I know half of the population voted for Gore once.  Like I said, my gun is green.  I won't double stack the magazine, no matter how practical it is.  I won't use a short barreled rifle, no matter how practical it is.  I think short barreled rifles are probably the best option for home defense unless the rifle creates so much blast and flash that it becomes a hindrance.

 

I remember long ago seeing the cover of Gun Digest and seeing the 10mm version of the HK MP5 submachine gun.  Two clear double row magazines with about 60 rounds of 10mm hollow point showing.  To me that could be the perfect home defense rifle.  It is a shame I'll never have one.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/27/2006 at 17:49
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Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

http://fivesevenforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5076

 

Just saw this and wanted to post it.

 

Don't listen to that guy.  He doesn't know what he is talking about

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/27/2006 at 17:52
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Doh!!

 

Man I feel dumb...er.

 

I didn't even look at the name. Sorry.

 

Cool looking Aimpoint!!

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/27/2006 at 18:03
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I'm glad you added that link.  I was surprised to just see the Aimpoint "Micro" just show up on the lightfighter forum like that.  I hope it is for real.
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