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257 Weatherby or 264 Win Mag

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RifleDude View Drop Down
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Not trying to pick on ya, Ed.

I just think too often we hunters/shooters adopt the “more is always better” mindset and obsess over the things that matter the least (caliber designations engraved on the side of a barrel, scope top end magnification, etc) and give too little thought to the things that matter the most like bullet choice and working on perishable shooting skills. I’ve been just as guilty of being seduced by some sexy new cartridge as anyone. Too many people debate the relative merits of chamberings and give little to no thought about what bullet to use for the game and expected shot distances. They just use whatever is available in the ammo they were able to find on store shelves. Then, they expect their caliber of choice to always kill like a lightning bolt even with marginal shot placement or poor bullet choice, and forever malign the cartridge if results don’t match expectations.

Bottom line is it’s the bullet that does all the grunt work, and it takes a competent shooter and mechanically sound rig to guide said bullet to the right spot. All else is window dressing when you get down to it. The case said bullet is launched from is only important to the extent that it causes the bullet to arrive on target with sufficient velocity to cause the bulllet to work as its designer intended.

Barring the absurd (going after elk with a .223), there are dozens of cartridges that will kill any given game animal equally dead, equally rapidly provided the person pulling the trigger gave a little more than passing thought to bullet selection and the shooter and gun is capable of guiding the bullet to the right spot. Again barring the absurdities, if those conditions are met, as long as the bullet is traveling at sufficient velocity to make the bullet work properly when it impacts hide, the case the bullet was launched from is irrelevant.

Cartridge selection is of course much more critical when dealing with the extremes — super long range shots, dangerous or extremely tough game. But even then, the bullet chosen for the task and its flight and terminal performance characteristics is much, much more important than the label on the base of the brass.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2017 at 10:09
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Originally posted by Son of Ed Son of Ed wrote:

Well now I am confused.....I think that I have messed up the conversation about Adequate Power for antelope with my own Hang Up about having to have animals drop in their tracks in order to satisfy me....

....I will just say that all mule deer I have shot with a 270 went belly up with their legs in the air! ....and antelope DID NOT! They stood there and swayed and eventually flopped over! Laugh ....Leading me to Formulate Eduardo's Great Scientific Theory that antelope are tougher than Mulies....and so is their hides! ....and their Bones!!  

.....anyway....forget I messed up the thread.....haha! 


Big Smile




Ed, I've never hunted pronghorn (always wanted to just never got around to it), but I know a lot of people who have.  One guy I know hunts SOLELY with 25-06 and as far as I know has never lost a game animal and most drop with one shot… shot placement.  I know people who use 7mm-08 almost exclusively and have never had a problem taking pronghorn (I watched the video of him taking a running pronghorn at 421 yards with a 7mm-08), .243 the same, 30-06, .308 and on and on.
I like hunting with the .458 Lott, but I don't believe it has any magic over other calibers when it comes to "deer sized" game.  I would prefer it for "dangerous game".  I WOULD hunt water buffalo with a 30-06 at need.. would shoot one with a 17HMR IF I HAD TO.  Shot placement is, and always has been, more important than caliber.  
When it comes to calibers for hunting, I like to think of it this way:
"the race is not always to the swift, the battle to the strong… but that's the way to bet"

Some people who are not very good, or lousy, shots hunt…  I know a guy who is always asking me to let him hunt on my land… while talking about the "ones that got away"… "I know I hit it, but never could find it".  Always wants me to hunt with him… NOT gonna happen. 

Find what you like and want to hunt with, that WORKS… then hunt with it.  Everyone else's opinion is just that when it comes to YOU.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2017 at 10:12
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Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

As to the 2 cartridges in the OP...

Otherwise, if it were me, I’d go with either 7-08 or 6.5 Creedmoor, as I’m a short action fan. If forced to go with a long action, I’d pick .280/.280 AI, or if I was feeling really tricky — 6mm-06.



I knew that was coming.....Laugh


Even when I’m trying to wear my Practical Hat and begrudgingly admit that cartridge choice doesn’t matter as much as we like to think it does... I still have my romantic side, Mark.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2017 at 10:21
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To your point, Ed. A guy who works for Proof Research told me about a shot he took on an Elk at about 200 yds with a 300Win mag shooting a 212 gr EldX bullet.  The shot hit the Elk squarely in the shoulder, but the animal walked away. No blood trail.  !0 days later a friend of the guy who was hunting the same ground actually killed the Elk, and found that the original ineffective shot hit the Elk in the shoulder as claimed but barely penetrated the hide.  Bullet must have disintegrated on impact. Lightly constructed lead core bullets when impacting at high velocity can behave more like spit wads than bullets.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2017 at 10:38
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Image result for pennsylvania whitetail snow

I have a story....but it is OFF TOPIC......





Back in 1966 I was hunting in my "neighborhood" in the Pennsylvania mountains not too far from our farm.....


It was raining....no snow....just cold and rainy....and I got myself situated next to an old tree and sat there, dripping wet, with my Marlin 30-30......waiting for the sun to come up....

....after a couple of hours I heard a twig snap! 


Image result for pennsylvania forest  snow

All of a sudden I saw a DEER!! A deer head APPEARED past a tree trunk!! I saw it!! He turned his head! I SAW ANTLERS!! He turned his head forward again and now I COULD NOT see antlers!!  Loco


But I knew darn well I had seen antlers!!!  

He took a step forward....now I could see his torso but not his head!!!  I took aim at his lungs.....


Related image


I squeezed off a shot! He went belly-up!!! 

I raced down there! Thank God He had antlers!!  

He was laying there.....


Image result for gray haired white tail deer

He was an old deer with gray hair and only a pair of fork horn antlers.....definitely in his Old Age....

I gave him a kick and he didn't move!  I got out my knife. ( My uncle had sent me a Christmas present from his recent Air Force assignment in Frankfort, Germany....a Puma  Gamekeeper....) 

Image result for puma knife gamekeeper



I was about ready to gut this old deer when....I thought I could feel his heart beating under my hand!!!

Image result for marlin 336


I decided I better put another bullet in him! I shot him in the neck! He kicked a few times....I gutted him out....


It took me HOURS to drag his ass uphill in the forest to get back to my old car....a 1954 Dodge Coronet.....miraculously, two fellows from my school bus showed up to help me!!!  


....but, back at the farm the deer was TOO BIG for me to get him out of the trunk....I had to wait for a couple of local men to come home from work and help me get him out of the trunk....we got him strung up in the garage where I could skin him out....


I said THANKS and began skinning my deer out....


Image result for spooky moon


I skinned that deer.....and I NEVER FOUND A BULLET HOLE IN HIS HIDE!!!! other than the one I shot into his neck!!!! 





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Related image





Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2017 at 10:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2017 at 10:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2017 at 10:49
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" The muzzle blast of a 30-30 will kill deer at fifty yards!! " 







Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2017 at 11:15
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Well, fellas, I am sorry I have messed up your thread....but I hope I have been entertaining enough to have earned your forgiveness....    Bucky


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2017 at 11:28
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Not trying to pick on ya, Ed.

I just think too often we hunters/shooters adopt the “more is always better” mindset and obsess over the things that matter the least (caliber designations engraved on the side of a barrel, scope top end magnification, etc) and give too little thought to the things that matter the most like bullet choice and working on perishable shooting skills. I’ve been just as guilty of being seduced by some sexy new cartridge as anyone. Too many people debate the relative merits of chamberings and give little to no thought about what bullet to use for the game and expected shot distances. They just use whatever is available in the ammo they were able to find on store shelves. Then, they expect their caliber of choice to always kill like a lightning bolt even with marginal shot placement or poor bullet choice, and forever malign the cartridge if results don’t match expectations.

Bottom line is it’s the bullet that does all the grunt work, and it takes a competent shooter and mechanically sound rig to guide said bullet to the right spot. All else is window dressing when you get down to it. The case said bullet is launched from is only important to the extent that it causes the bullet to arrive on target with sufficient velocity to cause the bulllet to work as its designer intended.

Barring the absurd (going after elk with a .223), there are dozens of cartridges that will kill any given game animal equally dead, equally rapidly provided the person pulling the trigger gave a little more than passing thought to bullet selection and the shooter and gun is capable of guiding the bullet to the right spot. Again barring the absurdities, if those conditions are met, as long as the bullet is traveling at sufficient velocity to make the bullet work properly when it impacts hide, the case the bullet was launched from is irrelevant.

Cartridge selection is of course much more critical when dealing with the extremes — super long range shots, dangerous or extremely tough game. But even then, the bullet chosen for the task and its flight and terminal performance characteristics is much, much more important than the label on the base of the brass.

You can get away with anything, Ted.....I know you ain't being mean.... Smile









Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2017 at 11:37
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I killed a lot of deer with a 30/30. The only ones that did not dash were hit in the CNS. I tried most of the available bullets to make the cartridge more capable. I killed a lot of deer with a .300 Win Mag. Same deal, almost. That's kinda how things work, all-around. If you want to dump them on the spot, you have to interrupt the signals to the muscles holding the animal up. 

If you're not taking out the CNS, it is worth considering that the bullet has to be in the animal to cause damage. We refer to the concept of "residence time". A slower bullet can hit harder because it imparts more of the available energy to the animal. There are low and high limits, I suppose. And bullets should only be so tough as necessary for adequate penetration.

The which means you need to put a fragile enough bullet, at an appropriate speed in the right spot. Some people get worked up over flat trajectories to do so. Trajectory is important. Wind drift is, too. Trajectory is more easily accounted for by me, and I suppose most. So, wind drift can be the factor on which you judge suitability of a cartridge for game like pronghorn shot in the open where it tends to be windy.

I suggest adding 270 WSM to the list if recoil is not a factor. Recoil is not bad with the 270 WSM, but it is not light.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2017 at 11:40
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Originally posted by nralifer nralifer wrote:

To your point, Ed. A guy who works for Proof Research told me about a shot he took on an Elk at about 200 yds with a 300Win mag shooting a 212 gr EldX bullet.  The shot hit the Elk squarely in the shoulder, but the animal walked away. No blood trail.  !0 days later a friend of the guy who was hunting the same ground actually killed the Elk, and found that the original ineffective shot hit the Elk in the shoulder as claimed but barely penetrated the hide.  Bullet must have disintegrated on impact. Lightly constructed lead core bullets when impacting at high velocity can behave more like spit wads than bullets.

I had that happen to me on a hog hunt a few years ago.  Turned me off of Federal ammo for hunting.  I still shoot Federal for precision, because it is overall DANGED ACCURATE, but have not hunted with anything Federal since.  I got a case of it at drastically reduced "sale" price…less than 1/2 price… have since suspected that they knew of the "issue", but when I wrote Federal about it they said it must have been my fault, could not have possibly been their ammo.  Two of us saw the hit at about 40 yards, were sure the hog would drop any second… he just kept running.  After determining he was not going to stop, he was out of sight in the heavy undergrowth.  
Huge hog, "blood trail" (1 large splatter, 1 large drop) stopped after about 10 feet in thick Texas brush/briars.  Best we can tell, that bullet just disintegrated on impact.  

I've just completed some online research and cannot even find the bullets I have for sale anymore.  Federal Vital Shok Nosler 165 grain solid base… I just ran through all I have left… 8 of the nine remaining boxes have soft points, one box has hollow tip… quite probably the box I opened on the hunt, as there is 1 round missing.  The other 8 boxes are full with the soft points.  I had given Lori what was left of 1 box to shoot after sighting in my rifle.  Guess I should have investigated more at the time.  Interesting about that box of ammo with different bullets, though.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2017 at 11:42
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I have found that MOST deer collapse after being hit with a 30-30....I only had ONE run for 50 yards....




Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2017 at 11:46
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" Eduardo has had NO woodchucks run away after being hit by a 30-30! " 









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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2017 at 11:50
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What about squirrels???
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2017 at 12:20
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A big boar squirrel is undoubtedly a tough test for the ancient .30-30.
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Another major failure on my part… I have no 30-30...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2017 at 12:25
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Originally posted by urbaneruralite urbaneruralite wrote:

I killed a lot of deer with a 30/30. The only ones that did not dash were hit in the CNS. I tried most of the available bullets to make the cartridge more capable. I killed a lot of deer with a .300 Win Mag. Same deal, almost. That's kinda how things work, all-around. If you want to dump them on the spot, you have to interrupt the signals to the muscles holding the animal up. 


Perzackly!!!!

And or break the shoulders, making it impossible for it to continue standing up.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2017 at 12:36
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The vast majority of the longest blood trails I’ve followed had feral hogs at the end of ‘em. I’ve killed untold hundreds of hogs and I’ve seen them travel amazing distances with hits in the vitals with .300/.338 class magnums. They are amazingly tough, strong willed critters! The only way I’ve found to 100% reliably anchor them on the spot is a brain shot, and then caliber choice isn’t very critical.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2017 at 15:48
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" Eduardo was in a bar in Colorado one time and discovered that a couple of pitchers of Kamikazes is like a 'brain shot'! " 


* it was the Hollywood Bar in Dolores.....









Edited by Son of Ed - December/17/2017 at 18:00
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2017 at 16:22
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Somehow, Eduardo, I can imagine that a couple of pitchers of Kamikaze would improve your thought processes...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2017 at 17:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2017 at 18:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/18/2017 at 11:22
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Originally posted by Son of Ed Son of Ed wrote:

I swear to God I have only had ONE animal run after being shot!  A heart shot doe ran fifty yards before collapsing.....otherwise every animal in MY LIFE dropped in his tracks!!  

.....It's kind of a......TRADITION now.......


....call it an Obsessive Compulsive Disorder......




I  had a gun and ammo that did that, until I ran out of the ammo. The next box I bought, I didn't get the same results. 

Gun was a Ruger M77 MK11 stainless laminate in 7mm-08. Ammo was Winchester Supreme Ballistic Silvertip in 140gr.  No deer ran off when shot with the first box, second box, not a single DRT. 

Nosler changed something in the bullet make up. 

What I have been told is to shoot them high in the shoulder for 1 shot DRT kills. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/18/2017 at 14:28
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Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Another major failure on my part… I have no 30-30...


Don't log back on until you fix that..... a Henry maybe?

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