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223 rifle twist rates

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/17/2010 at 11:05
stork23raz View Drop Down
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I see 223 AR's with twist rates form 1:9, 1:8, and 1:7. I know its for different bullet weights. So why are all the bolt guns I see just 1:9? Can you still stablizie a heavy bullet in one of these?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/17/2010 at 11:11
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Savage makes a few models with 1-7" twist so it will shoot the heavier pills better.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/17/2010 at 11:14
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I have not had much luck shooting over 68s in a 1-9" twist.  My 1-7"s shoot the hornady 75s amazingly well though.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/17/2010 at 11:20
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It just seems odd. almost every ar company makes models in 1:9 or 1:8 at least. why dont bolt manufactures do the same. Cause I think they should.

I think I seen the savage ones iwth a 1:7 arentt those competition guns. Do you know of any that more hunter or tactical rather than big shiny 30" guns?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/17/2010 at 11:21
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I've never been able to get heavier bullets to shoot in an AR because of loading them to mag length.  highest I use now is 69.  Each gun is a little different and where some 1:9 may shoot 75gr's others won't
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/17/2010 at 11:22
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Bud has a thumbhole savage with a 7 and I will have on one Sunday with a 7 too.  they are the model 12 savage thumbhole laminate bull barrel.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/17/2010 at 11:29
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Originally posted by stork23raz stork23raz wrote:

It just seems odd. almost every ar company makes models in 1:9 or 1:8 at least. why dont bolt manufactures do the same. Cause I think they should.?



I would say because 95% of the ammo people shoot is either military ball ammo (62 grain) or regular old 55 grain FMJ.  People who need the heavier bullets typically are shooting target or competition so they have specialized guns built anyway.  Plus the .223 is mostly a varimint round so there is no need for a heavy bullet.  And a 1-9" shoots pretty much 45- 69 grain quite well which allows a pretty big versatility for shooters.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/17/2010 at 11:31
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I shot some hornady 75s in my 1:9 are jammed trying to load almost every , or every other round.  Mines set  for 60's now and no probelms. I mainly just have rimfire's and shotguns mostly. only centerfire I got is  ar & ak. But there is just someting I like about the 223 I know its not a elephant slayer and not the best varmint round but it just seems coool to me. every thing from the 40s up the 77s.  seems very veristile in its abilities. I know the Ar's have made it a very popular round just wondered why at least different barrel twist havent become as common in bolt guns.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/17/2010 at 11:39
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223 is being held alive by the AR..... there are too many other calipers superior. IMO

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/17/2010 at 11:43
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I have a BCM 16" mid-length with a 1:7 twist. It LOVES Hornady BTHP and TAP 75gr. The 1:7 twists will generally be more accurate with the 60+gr loads.

The korean made 5.56 winchester Q3131A1 is my bulk ammo. It's not Hornady or Black Hills but than again it doesn't cost 18-19 a box.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/17/2010 at 12:00
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Originally posted by SVT_Tactical SVT_Tactical wrote:

223 is being held alive by the AR..... there are too many other calipers superior. IMO

 
Oh i know its def not the best. i think it is a neat little round. I personally would like to have a 6.5G &/or 6.5C but i dunno they will ever become popular enough.
 
as far as the 223's in ar. its a  military caliber so it will be around for along time.  I personally think our soldiers should be carrying 6.8 or 6.5
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/17/2010 at 12:03
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That is what is nice about reloading.  As long as you can get the brass it does not really matter if the caliber is popular or not.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/17/2010 at 13:08
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Dont' get me wrong I love the 223, just got another.  put if i where gonna get into p-doggin' and such, i would want a 204 or 22-250. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/17/2010 at 13:21
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oh yea 223 doest have the shear velocity to compete.
I hope to take my ar out in the woods with its 60 grainers see if i can find some unsuspecting deer to shoot.
SVT-I know how much you enjoy headshotting deers.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/17/2010 at 15:57
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My 223wssm has a 10 twist.  But only available factory loads are 55 and 64.  If I don't start doing my own reloading I may have to trade it for a 22 250 if and when ammo becomes scarce.  Probably why I got such a great price on the rifle in the first place, because they stopped making them.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/18/2010 at 16:09
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Originally posted by shooter07 shooter07 wrote:

I have a BCM 16" mid-length with a 1:7 twist. It LOVES Hornady BTHP and TAP 75gr.
 
I have the same upper.
My Bravo doesn't like 75gr. TAP ammo. Likes the Georgia Arms 68gr atuff and my 69gr reloads.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/18/2010 at 18:18
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this is a recent group shot @ 100yrds  1:8 twist with Black Hills 69gr sierra match king hp  the gun also shoots 55gr and 65gr about the same.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/18/2010 at 18:18
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I have one of the Savage 12 LRPV models, 1:7 twist with 26 inch tube.
Launches 80 grain sierra's at 2900 fps.  Last comp was 20 into 3/4 moa at 300 yards prone according to the score card.. 
Takes about 31.75 moa to 1000.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2012 at 00:10
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My 1:9 AR shoots Hornady 75g just fine. I predict that the bolt rifle manufactures will soon provide other twist options just like the AR manufacturers do. There are too many good heavy bullets in that caliber now to avoid. Most bolt guns in .223, .22-250, etc. have been bought by varmint hunters who want speed. Therefore they are shooting 40-55 grain bullets. Once they discover just how accurate those big bullets are at 600 yards and beyond, they will step up to the challenge. The 1:7 twist will take a little velocity off of those little bullets but they will allow varmint hunters and target shooters to shoot very accurately out to 1000 yards by stabilizing those heavy bullets.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/26/2012 at 01:18
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I have a 1-9 twist .22-.250 and use 68 Hornady hpbt's with H4350 powder with really good results up to 500 yds and more. I had to see if the 75 gr. AMaxes would shoot in the 1-9 twist .22-.250 but they would not. I also shoot the 53 gr. VMax (.5 groups @ 100) because they are speedy. Possibly all 1-9 twist barrels are not the same as the rifling buttons may differ from barrel to barrel. 
 
My .223 bolt gun at more than 250 fps slower with a 1-9 twist shoots 40's, to 68's really well. Brass is cheap, small powder charges, and long barrel life.
 
My next .22-.250 will have a 1-8 twist to shoot the 75 gr AMax's. I have no plans to shoot 40 gr VMaxes in that rifle. I hear that 1-14 twist barrels will not shoot 53 VMax's well but the 1-8 should. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/26/2012 at 08:02
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Stevey, I can't stabilize the 75g Amax bullets in my 1:9 either but I CAN stabilize the 75g Hornady Match HPBT... these bullets are very accurate with RL15 for me. You might want to try them for 600 yard varmints. I used to shoot little 45g .220 Swift bullets for blazing speed (4100 fps). After popping tons of p-dogs at 250 yards, I now much prefer to target them at 500-600 yards, even out to 1000 yards. It is just a lot more fun and more of a challenge. With the fantastic optics and barrels available today, this is very achievable for most hunters. If you try them, look at 500 yard groups rather than 100 yard groups because any heavy-for-caliber boat tail bullet will fish tail for the first 200 yards. They straighten out real nice at about 300 yards though and typically shoot better 600 yard groups than the small bullets by far. Plus they buck the wind real consistently. Now I would gladly sacrifice a few hundred fps of speed in the little bullets to get the hunting effectiveness of these big bullets. Especially if you need to deer hunt with them too.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/06/2012 at 23:40
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Thanks DMan,
 
Just trying to avoid another partial box of 75-80 bullets waiting for another barrel to shoot them through. Have gone there with 142 gr MK's in a 1-9 6.5mm.
 
The 75 gr hpbt's should be just as effective or more on coyotes as the 68's are.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/07/2012 at 06:09
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Originally posted by Dakotaman Dakotaman wrote:

If you try them, look at 500 yard groups rather than 100 yard groups because any heavy-for-caliber boat tail bullet will fish tail for the first 200 yards. They straighten out real nice at about 300 yards though.
  
Have you personally seen this or is this something you read on the internet and assumed it had to be true? Have you shot these bullet at paper at 50/100/etc. yards and seen oblong holes?
The only thing that matters is you have a proper twist in your barrel to stabilize the bullet you select. If this is met, then there should be no stability problems at any distance. If you are truly seeing "fish tailing" or wobbling of any sort, then you need to select a different bullet.
The stability factor can be determined pretty accurately by math if you know your barrel twist and bullet length.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/07/2012 at 13:04
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In regard to shooting long bullets in a rifle with not enough twist - what I have seen is this:
 
Sideways bullet holes at 100 yds then no predicable strikes beyond 100.
or
Very poor groups, like 3-4 inches but no profiled bullet holes.
or
Not much difference in 100 to 200 to 300 yd groups - like a 1 moa group at 100 is a .75 moa group at 200
 
Other observations are that is easier to get shorter bullets to group better at shorter ranges than longer bullets. ie. 52 gr. .224's, 68-70 gr. 243's, 130 gr. .308's all shot with slow twist rifles..
 
I think the term used for long bullets is "going to sleep" and that claim is valid. On page 1060 of edition V of the Sierra manual bullet "yaw" is discussed - "First as described in section 2.4, a bullet exits the muzzle with some ballistic yaw generally an angle on the order of one degree. This initial yaw causes the bullet to precess, or cone about the velocity vector. As the bullet flies, this coning motion dampens out or damps out to some minimum value over the first 200 yards or so." The manual goes on to state that small effects that become more apparent during an extended time of flight are "overwhelmed by the coning motion at short ranges". On page 1063 of the same manual appears a diagram, Figure 4.2-1 showing a bullet with a: center of mass, center of pressure, and "yaw of repose". My belief is that the distance "r" between the center of mass and the center of pressure would be greater on a longer bullet resulting in a greater "yaw of repose". Slowing the rate of twist at some point would result in insabilty resulting in poor or no (sideways) accuracy. Remember preschool play time with toy gyroscopes - when the were pushed in one direction they moved at right angles, 90 degrees to the direction they were pushed, that is "precess".
 
What I think is that I need a 1-8 twist to launch the 75 gr AMax out of a .22-.250 and tiny groups at 100 yds are secondary to accuracy at 500 yds and more. I also would prefer the AMax over a OPM bullet because I think the expansion would be better. The Sierra Infinity program tells me a .22-.250 shooting 75-77 grain projectiles would be a very cost effective varmint killer at long ranges.  Until I get the 1-8 I plan to try and then shoot 75 OPM's in my 1-9.
 
In my former life I have been chewed out for failure to "RYFM". 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/07/2012 at 15:21
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not sure what RYFM stands for?

Thanks for the reply seems like youre well read, not sure on your shooting back ground. I guess maybe i should clarify my post. I agree with you on almost everything you said above, my point is the significance people are giving it (including yourself).

Do you consistantly shoot better MOA at 200yds vs. 100yds with low drag bullets? I dont in any of my guns. We have all seen plenty of rifles shoot one hole groups with boat tail bullets at 100yds, how come they didnt experience this going to sleep? If you do experience this going to sleep, does this difference go away with flat base bullets in your rifle?
 
All the below is based on reading Bryan Litz book Applied Ballistics For Long Range Shooting, its a great read i recommend it to everybody.
 
The Yaw vs. Pitch that makes up the epicylic swerve (corkscrew flight path) - this would be worse at 3-5yds (makes sense, he was quoting a worse case of 0.04" and goes away quicker with a faster twist) and by the time the bullet has traveled to 100yds the swerve radius has shrunk to an immeasurable amount and is far dwarfed by other factors.
 
As far as its easier to get shorter bullets to group better at shorter ranges - This is correct to a point b/c low drag bullet/boat tails are inherently less precise than flat base bullets b/c of the more complicated bullet design, muzzle blast on boat tails, etc. With modern manufacturing these differences are very small (most of use dont shoot that good) and the low drag wins out down range (we both agree on that). When getting down to the niddy gritty, a slowest twist barrel that is able to stabilize the bullet should be more accurate than a faster twist one since the faster twist magnifies the imperfections of the bullet (like driving a car with a tire out of balance, its gets worse the faster you go), but once again with modern manufacturing of bullets this should be nil.
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