New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - 223 deer load for 1 and 8 twist AR
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Check GunBroker.com for SWFA's No Reserve and No Minimum bid firearm auctions.

223 deer load for 1 and 8 twist AR

 Post Reply Post Reply   Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options Page  1 2>
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2012 at 11:57
jselsor View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: August/01/2011
Location: MO
Status: Offline
Points: 328
Im not here to debate this issue. If you have issues with 223 on deer go out and buy a drury outdoors video and watch mark and taylor drury shoulder shoot 300+ pound bucks with a TC 223.
Here is what I am thinking barnes tsx 69 grain and varget. If anyone has experimented with good ACCURATE hunting load for 223 your insight would be much appreciated! 
Thanks Selsor  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2012 at 13:29
EAGLE View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice


Joined: August/08/2011
Status: Offline
Points: 286
200-300 lb hogs are taken here (Texas) with the following:

Barnes TSX
Sierra Game Kings SPS
Win Ballistic Silver Tips

55-69 grainers and all have been under MOA with w/ 1-8 twist

So something soft as a deer should be no problem with proper shot placement.

Eagle

Edited by EAGLE - February/05/2012 at 13:36
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2012 at 15:40
Alan Robertson View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: October/31/2009
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 1530
I don't think Barnes makes a .22 cal 69 gr TSX, but they make a 62 and 70 gr. They also make a TTSX 62 gr.
I've gotten good accuracy/power with the 62 gr. in a 1:8 twist using TAC, H4895 and N201, but any powder in that speed range would work. You'll likely get the highest velocities with either TAC or AA2520. You'll be crunching powder with compressed loads if you go with Varget, but if you already have a can, go for it, as it makes accurate .223 loads. If you'll be loading closer to 5.56 specs rather than .223, Varget probably isn't your best choice for a hunting load as you give up velocity.

While almost all mfg.'s make a .224 hunting bullet from 55-70gr., I chose the 62 gr. TSX as it fared well in reviews- good accuracy, terminal performance and it doesn't come apart.
I haven't actually hunted with the load, so no anecdotes on performance.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2012 at 15:45
FireEMT5 View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: September/07/2010
Location: S.E. Minnesota
Status: Offline
Points: 258
I used 60 gr. Nosler partitions this past fall over 25.0 grains of H-335 using CCI primers.  They grouped ok and did get the job on a doe. 
 
My favorite load so far is a 60 gr. Hornady V-max over 25.3 grains of H-335.  These grouped really nice.
 
These were shot out of an 16 inch barreled AR with a 1 in 9 twist.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2012 at 22:15
jselsor View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: August/01/2011
Location: MO
Status: Offline
Points: 328
Alan what is your top choice of the powders you mentioned for this particular purpose. Keep in mind this is out of an AR so I dont want my loads to hot! And if you dont mind whats your powder charge with the tsx.
Fire man from Minnesota I will have to give those vmax a try too. But only for varmints. Dont think it would be the best for deer since their designed to explode
 
Thanks for the feed back guys. Cant wait to tweak this load
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/06/2012 at 07:40
Alan Robertson View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: October/31/2009
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 1530
Howdy jselsor,
This particular AR has a Wylde chamber ss20"/1:8 barrel and I usually load it hotter than .223. I'll just say the load is under 5.56 max and a shade under 3Kfps and the soft WSR primers were getting a bit flat. Twist rate/barrel length influence velocity.

TAC is a great hunting/high- velocity powder in an AR and it is very clean, inexpensive, meters well, accurate, etc. I really like it. There wasn't anything wrong with other powders/loads mentioned, just hit a sweet spot/accurate/hot with 1st try w/TAC/TSX, so stopped trying. TSX are spendy and box was running dry. Some shooters don't like TAC because it's double- based and they think it will burn out barrels faster- beats me. I realized long ago that if I'm going to get/stay proficient, I need to shoot, so new barrels are inevitable, so who cares.
 Service Rifle competitors use powders other than TAC.


Here are Barnes links to .223 and 5.56 load data:
http://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/223RemingtonWeb.pdf

http://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/5.56-Nato.pdf

Here's Ramshot link:
http://www.ramshot.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/ramshot_handgun_rifle.pdf

BTW, that SS 3-9 is s.n. 223 (sorry, SVT... or not).



Edited by Alan Robertson - February/06/2012 at 08:09
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/06/2012 at 11:14
jselsor View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: August/01/2011
Location: MO
Status: Offline
Points: 328
Thanks man
 That gives me a good starting point! I wish I had enough time to burn up a barrel! It would give me an excuse to tear it down and tinker... I just had my first child and dont get to shoot near as much as would like to.. Wouldnt change it for anything tho.. Reloading has given me a good at home hobby. 
I have mainly been using varget for 308 loads and look forward to giving  TAC a try.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/06/2012 at 14:22
DCAMM94 View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: April/19/2008
Location: Fort Worth
Status: Offline
Points: 1847
I shot some handloads this weekend in my new .223 CZ.  Two bullets -- Barnes 53g TSX and the 60g nosler partitions.  In MY rifle, the partitions shot better based on the load I had worked up.  In my rifle, the COL for bullets touching the lans is 2.215 for the partitions and 2.225 for the Barnes.

60gr NPT - 27.0C Varget - COL: 2.215 (touching lans).  Best group:  3 shot, .3" at 50yds
53gr TSX - 27.0C Varget - COL: 2.205 (.02 off lans).  Best group: 3 shot, 1" at 50yds

I think the TSX has more accuracy potential, so I intend to play with seating depth and charge a little.  I'll be with my chrony this weekend so I can play with it some more.  Today I received some Hornady 55gr GMX bullets, so I'll be loading some of those to try.  Will probably load the GMX's with a little room for jump off of the lans like the TSX, but these bullets are relatively new to me, so I'm not sure what to expect.  I'll also have some chrony readings for all of these.  My barrel is 23.6", by the way.  Good thing about these loads is that wind really wasn't a factor, and on 16x with the Viper and my solid machined rest, I was able to take out most of the human error component from these groups, so I know better which loads are giving me fliers and which loads aren't.  I also intend to try H4895 on the GMX/TSX loads this go round, because from what I've seen, the load data predicts similar velocities to Varget but with uncompressed charges, allowing me more precision in seating and consistency.  Good luck to you.  I also should point out that I believe the Nosler load may be slightly above some maximums listed for the bullet/powder.  MY results were accurate groups.  I also had NO pressure signs in MY rifle.  No idea if these would be safe in your rifle, or any other, for that matter.  Best of luck.

Deck
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/06/2012 at 16:36
Alan Robertson View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: October/31/2009
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 1530
Hope I didn't discourage your use of Varget as it does give some of the better velocities for bullets in this weight range loaded to magazine length, just compressed, as typical for Varget. I could have easily had best starting groups with Varget, but happened to be out of stock for initial tests of TSX. If I'd had any 2520 on hand, I might have even bumped my speed up a bit...

Varget and H4895 are both highly accurate in many .223 loads and for everything I load with them, just like N201, since I mentioned it. I tend to be stingy with N201 though, since it's pricey and hard to find and I stock it for a couple of specific loads/calibers where it is superb.
There are many great powders for .223... I keep telling myself I'm gonna cut down and have fewer types on hand, but it never works out like that. If I had to have just one rifle powder, it would probably be H4895 (or some 4895 variant,) as I could at least get some kind of decent load in all calibers.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/06/2012 at 16:49
jselsor View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: August/01/2011
Location: MO
Status: Offline
Points: 328
It would be beneficial for me to use the varget for all my rifle loads (223,308,300wsm,30-06)
This way I can justify buying the big jug! The good ol KISS method. 


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/06/2012 at 19:09
Alan Robertson View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: October/31/2009
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 1530
Originally posted by jselsor jselsor wrote:

It would be beneficial for me to use the varget for all my rifle loads (223,308,300wsm,30-06)
This way I can justify buying the big jug! The good ol KISS method.
That'll work! Excellent plan- you'll learn all the ins and outs of Varget. Like my friend John R. says, "I love the smell of Varget in the morning".

I just counted and have on hand 20 different cans of powder and need more.
An obvious case of some sort of serious affliction...

As an alternative hunting bullet, I've also gotten excellent accuracy w/ Sierra's 65 gr. SBT, which costs less. Others report that they can grenade on close shots, but that's just a characteristic of boat tails, imho. Just about everybody makes a decent hunting bullet for the .223.

My fave all- around 1:8 bullet is Hornady's 75 gr. BTHP Match, which is often sold in bulk and on sale. It isn't a "hunting" bullet, but it works great in 1 in 8 and you can reach way out there with it.  You could say that I'm just cheap and like bullets on sale.



Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/06/2012 at 19:24
cheaptrick View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar

Joined: September/27/2004
Location: Grassy knoll...
Status: Offline
Points: 16912
Excellent pics, Alan. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/07/2012 at 13:02
Alan Robertson View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: October/31/2009
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 1530
Thanks!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/07/2012 at 19:33
jselsor View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: August/01/2011
Location: MO
Status: Offline
Points: 328
Alan if I let myself I could def be like you with the 20 cans of powder! I love to tinker at my reloading bench and even more at the range. Those barnes bullets look wicked. They are on my list to order.  I have heard that those game kings mushroom very well but dont do so good with shoulder blades. I am anxious to show up to deer camp next year and set my 223 on the rifle rack next to everyone's overkill 300's. 
I will also give those hornady's a try. Thanks again
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/07/2012 at 20:08
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Resident Redneck

Joined: June/20/2005
Location: Iowa
Status: Offline
Points: 13157
The 75 gr horniday is a favorite.  I do load some 69gr hpt and some 60VMAX but the 75 gr Horniday works nicely.  I am sure that the Nosler Partitions and the Barnes  bullets will preform nicely on game where other bullets are likely to break up.  One of my sons wont shoot anything but the 75 gr Hornidays because he thinks it knocks stuff down a lot better.
I tend to use only two powders for .223   RL5 and Varget.  Seating depth makes a lot of difference.
 
 http://www.whiteoakprecision.com/info-reloading.htm
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2012 at 13:50
preacherman View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: February/07/2012
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 71
I have the M4  bushmaster myself. IT DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE IF YOU ARE SHOOTING 223 CIVILIAN RNDS. Is yours a ar15/16 variant? If it is then I highly reccomend RL15or Vargent at 2700 fps any more fps and your weapon will shoot loose much quicker on top of that if you are loading military brass you will invariably over load. Vargent is very good and a  match worthy powder the same could be said for RL15 it is however a bit more temp sensitive. We carry them out here as a "truck weapon"
 ItWinks great for those wolves particularly when they are in a killing frenzy Wink
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2012 at 13:55
preacherman View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: February/07/2012
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 71
223 or AR15's are one of the best by the way the bullet I recommend is the 75 grain hornady they are held to tighter tolerances than sierra bullets are. Sorry for not mentioning the bullet weight and make in my earlier posts
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2012 at 15:39
supertool73 View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Master
Optics Jedi Master
Avatar
Superstool

Joined: January/03/2008
Location: Utah
Status: Offline
Points: 8203
I am a huge fan of 75 grain hornadys as well.  They have all shot very well out of 4 different 7 and 8 twist AR barrels I have tried.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2012 at 16:56
preacherman View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: February/07/2012
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 71
I bought a box of match 5.56 with 75 grain Hornadys my first group from my M4 went into less than 1/2MOA.

in my 338 the SST 225 hornady they do a hair over 1/2 MOA and in my O3A4 sniper rifle from WWII they did 3/8 to 1/2 MOA with a notable fluke group of .26

All mentioned groups were fired at 100 yards and all with Hornady's

The Hornady company holds the highest match standards of any of the big three, hornady, speer, and sierra. I used to think it was Sierra, but I was wrong. I called them all Sierras standard was 1.5 inches at 200 yrds thats ,75 MOA. I called Speer just for the heck of it cause I won't use em anymore and haven't for 20 years theirs was also .75 MOA  Hornady however was 9/10s at 200 yrds that translates into 7/16ths MOA. They can and regularly do much better than standards but in Long Range 1000 yrd minimums a difference is the difference between a  7 and 1/2 inch group A loss when going against a 4.79 inch group ... a winner. I have seen super accurate 308's and 06's shoot regular groups between 1/4 and 3/8th inch groups all day long WITH HORNADY'S My .338 will start its shooting life with me with a 285 grain match Hornady's I suspect That will group well under MOA with a .700 BC to thrown in there for fun. Good shooting


SEMPER FI
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/17/2012 at 21:43
jselsor View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: August/01/2011
Location: MO
Status: Offline
Points: 328
Well finally got my barnes 70 grain tsx deer killers in today! Their isnt much reload data in reference to varget and these bullets. What do you guys think about this to start? These babies are to expensive to work up a load! I already loaded 10 of these and it is def a compressed load. Worried it may be to much??????
70 gr tsx with 25 grains varget

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/18/2012 at 08:34
preacherman View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: February/07/2012
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 71
you are a bit overloaded there according to hornady. For the 68 grain match the book says MAX 24.9 I would back it off 1/2 grain or so. For the75 grain tac it lists 23.5 max. This is data for the service rifle.
Two questions #1 are you loading commercial brass or military #2 are you shooting a bolt rifle or an AR15 variant such  as an M4 or a AR15A2 or some such designation/ model?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/18/2012 at 10:01
Alan Robertson View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: October/31/2009
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 1530
Disclaimer right up front: Take anything I have to say with a grain of salt.
I'm just some guy out there and no kind of 'quotable' source/expert in anything to do with reloading, having made my share of mistakes to learn from (survive,) and one of them is detailed in this linked thread: http://www.opticstalk.com/topic31903.html
I've no experience with that 70 gr. Barnes bullet (not that it matters, because any loads would have been developed in my rifle and not your rifle.)


Your listed load is well above minimum pressure...  but read on...
With that length of bullet, it would be difficult to compress too much Varget into a case to go over maximum pressure and remain under magazine length.

It likely isn't a critical factor in this instance, but what cases/primers are you using?
As mentioned earlier in thread, mil- spec 5.56 chamber pressure is greater than .223 pressure, so .223 data would give a safety cushion. You have an AR, but I didn't see you list your chamber type.
No published load data for that combo bullet/powder leads us to detective work and interpolation of data:
Barnes lists 25.5 gr Varget as max load for .223 and 62 gr. TSX. 5.56 max isn't given, but would probably be  ~1.5 gr higher, with less for 70 gr bullet, of course.
Sierra lists Varget 26.1 gr. Max for a .223 load and their 69 gr bullet- meaning again, 5.56 load would use more powder.
Ramshot data shows that Sierra 69gr develops higher pressure than the Barnes 70 gr. with both Tac and X-Terminator powders, so the Sierra appears to have the higher coefficient of friction, therefore load data for Sierra 69 gr should work.
Hodgdon lists max Varget load of 26.gr compressed for the Sierra 69 gr - which closely agrees with Sierra-  and Hodgdon gives max pressure at 50,200psi, which is well below max pressure for both .223 and 5.56.
Hodgdon also lists a max Varget load of 26(c) gr with the Speer 70 grain at even less pressure of 48,400 psi.

While interpolating load data could get a guy in trouble right quick, with Varget's characteristics and the close agreement of the available data of the relatively safe pressure for that weight of Varget/bullet, looks like your load is safely below max pressure for .223 with a variety of primers and cases as used by the data sources listed.
You should be good to go.

If you really want to be sure, you could call Barnes and/or Hodgdon and ask them...
or, if you'd send me the rest of that box of Barnes, load testing is free.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/18/2012 at 11:20
Alan Robertson View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: October/31/2009
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 1530
Just looked in my Lyman 49th and Lee 2nd editions, (sorry for not thinking of this before) and the data in both hand loading manuals agrees with what has been said... Lee also lists a 70 gr bullet (type unknown) with a heavier charge of Varget than you are using, which produces 51Kpsi. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/18/2012 at 11:35
preacherman View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: February/07/2012
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 71
If memory serves the service rifle and military brass calls for lighter loads than the commercial 223 bolt action rifles at least according to Hornadys 7th edition loading manual. Call me over cautious but I like my eyes where they are LOLBig Smile
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/18/2012 at 13:25
Alan Robertson View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: October/31/2009
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 1530
Originally posted by preacherman preacherman wrote:

If memory serves the service rifle and military brass calls for lighter loads than the commercial 223 bolt action rifles at least according to Hornadys 7th edition loading manual. Call me over cautious but I like my eyes where they are LOLBig Smile
Well, it's a bit complicated...  just remember that .223 has lower max pressure limits than 5.56.

1) There is very little difference in case capacity between various lots of mil- spec and civilian brass, but small differences do exist, just as there are differences between two cases from the same mfg. lot.  This is generally of minor concern in load development, regardless of scuttlebutt.

In the real world, more people are concerned about getting a 'lot' of brass with case- heads too thin/soft which decreases the number of times that brass can be reloaded. Many shooters don't even bother to sort brass with different headstamps, since there is so little difference between varieties.
However, there are large differences in case capacity between military and civilian brass in other calibers, such as .308/7.62 NATO and .30-06. One definitely needs to reduce powder charges in those instances if using mil- spec brass, or pressure problems can/will occur.

2) .223 (SAAMI spec) chambers have shorter leades/throats than 5.56 NATO and are in some ways dimensionally smaller than 5.56, since the NATO service rifles are designed to function in adverse conditions with high- performance (read: high- pressure) military ammo. 
5.56 NATO ammunition is loaded to higher pressure specs than .223, therefore using .223 data gives one a margin of safety. .223 SAAAMI max pressure is 55, 000psi and 5.56 NATO spec max pressure is 62,366 psi

3) Bolt action rifles, due to their inherent strength, are generally considered strong enough to use 5.56 NATO loads. Semi- auto rifles with 5.56 MILSPEC/NATO chambers and several variant chamber designs, such as the Wylde chamber, are rated to use 5.56 NATO spec ammo. Some load data from some mfg.s gives both .223 and 5.56 data and specifies (usually) that 5.56 data is to be used only with service- type rifles with NATO or equivalent chambers and/or bolt action rifles.
One might assume that some rifles are not rated beyond SAAMI specs.

Here's a quote from RAMSHOT data concerning 5.56 loads:
<62,350 psi Application: Bolt Action Rifles and Semi Auto Weapons rated for the latest NATO/MIL ammunition.

One can not assume that commercially published load data which does not specify whether it meets .223 SAAMI or 5.56 NATO specifications is loaded to SAAMI specs, but that is usually the case... they publish .223 spec loads for obvious reasons.
I am not one of the "Duck Commander" Robertsons. I don't even look like them. Ok, maybe I do, but my beard is not as grey. Ok, maybe it is, but...
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  1 2>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Similar Threads: "223 deer load for 1 and 8 twist AR"
Subject Author Forum Replies Last Post
223 rifle twist rates stork23raz Firearms 45
Heavy 223 loads captainemil Reloading & Ballistics 20
need help on a 223 load jjrgr21 Reloading & Ballistics 5
working up new 68gr 223 Varmint Loads! budperm The Range Report 15
leupold mark ar vs nikon 223 rustic Rifle Scopes 3
FREE Nikon M-223 AR Scope Mount bman940 Tactical Scopes 11
AR-15 223 Reloads - Too much crimp? M7025-06 Reloading & Ballistics 2
Some 223 AR Scope Help!! cundiff5535 Target 3
winchester black shadow rate of twist in 223 wssm. boliodogs Firearms 7
223 600 yard variable scope advice gotigers Rifle Scopes 13


This page was generated in 0.289 seconds.