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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/05/2008 at 21:23
luv2shoot View Drop Down
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I know this has been asked a million times but...............

With a 1st focal plane scope the crosshairs magnify with the target as power increasees, meaning that the crosshair will cover as much of the target at 3X as it will at 12X. The crosshair grows proportional to the target thru the magnification range. Be good for low-light hunting crosshair where a second focal plane would appear to stay small thru the range or the same size......right?

Are the Burris signature series 2nd focal plane?

A couple weeks ago all this was Greek to me, now I am trying to get a handle on it. It's making meLocoLoco


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/05/2008 at 21:42
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As far as I know, all Burris scopes are 2nd focal plane.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/05/2008 at 22:38
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I do not know of a single american label that is FFP.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/05/2008 at 23:23
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Both USO and Leupold makes FFP scopes, but all of those are the more expensive sniper versions.

 
Regards Technika
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/06/2008 at 09:31
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Shepherd makes FFP.

And Leupold is not 100% American, just FYI.

FFP is a limited-utility item.  If you "need" it, you'll know.  If you don't know if you need it, you don't need it.

On hunting rifles, FFP is an annoyance - in my opinion.

By the way, Shepherds suck, don't buy for the reticule, and USO is indeed a tactical scope; no need for a deer rifle or safe queen to wear a USO, money better spent in other ways.


Edited by Rancid Coolaid - March/06/2008 at 09:32
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/06/2008 at 10:26
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your assumptions are correct- biggest advantage to FFP are in group shoots. If you have a spotter and you are both SFP , he is on 8 power and your on 12, how can be give you a correction ?? shooter you are 1/2 target to the left--- thats gonna work. If the group is all reading of the same sheet music-- ffp, simply correct for the mil setting regardless of magnification. sfp works great for loners and target shooting.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/06/2008 at 11:44
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good explanation, dale.
 
J
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/06/2008 at 12:44
luv2shoot View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

your assumptions are correct- biggest advantage to FFP are in group shoots. If you have a spotter and you are both SFP , he is on 8 power and your on 12, how can be give you a correction ?? shooter you are 1/2 target to the left--- thats gonna work. If the group is all reading of the same sheet music-- ffp, simply correct for the mil setting regardless of magnification. sfp works great for loners and target shooting.



Thanks for the explanation. Believe I will stick with SFP since that is what I am used to and I have never done the group shoot.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/06/2008 at 23:41
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I just recieved the IOR 2.5 -10x FFP scope in the mail today. I've spent all evening playing around with this optic and just love it! I watched six deer feeding out tonight until dark, about 280 yard away. From a hunters standpoint (and I'm talking about setting up this scope with its MP-8 reticle for long range shooting), I think the FFP with this reticle is an advantage. I also think the new IOR's with the floating dot is most helpful. Also, the FFP reticle that I just recieved does not have the big blocky bars like the SFP so when you increase magnification, its not overwhelming at all.

As it got really close to dark, increasing the reticle between 8x and 10x allowed me to see the floating dot and reticle much easier than by using the illuminated reticle at lower magnification... Probably better without illumination.  With the IOR's bright optic, I could have harvested any of those deer well beyond legal shooting hours. Wouldn't have been able to do that with the SFP, period. What more is there to say from a hunting standpoint?
 
I ranged a big horse with my Leica at 650 yards and with the IOR scope set on 10x, the reticle seemed to be of perfect size and inabled me to clearly see the reticle and set the dot where I wanted it. For me, having a bigger reticle at longer distances is going to help. I have no doubt that you could easily shoot 1000 yards with the right rifle and this FFP scope. At the lower end of the magnification (2.5x), the reticle would be lost without the illuminated feature. But if you had a target in low light at really close range and didn't have to shoot fast,  it will work.
 
If you are wanting a hunting scope for quick jump shooting and thick brush, the MP-8 with the FFP would not be a good choice. I have other rifles setup for this kind of situation. I realize that alot of hardcore shooters require the FFP for estimating purposes and things more complicated than I can figure out.  But for me, after seeing the MP-8 with the SFP, I wanted the increased reticle that the FFP offered. This scope doesn't go beyond 10x and so with optics of higher magnifications maybe the FFP might be to bold? I can tell you this, at 10x, I think it is perfect.
 
One other thought. After looking through so many higher powered optics of lesser quality and much simpler reticles, I feel like this 10x is superior to scopes of higher magnification (namely American brands). My opinion, the MP-8 FFP reticle looks and feels natural at higher power I'm excited to  start burning powder!
 
Still have that MP-8 image ingrained in my mind... It's really sweet!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2008 at 11:17
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I prefers FFP to SFP in mostly cases, espesially when hunting and using non illuminated scopes.
 
Regards Technika
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2008 at 13:24
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I belive it depends a lot in what kind of hunting you do.
For long range/daylight the FFP might be a good option.
In close covers, moving game, dusk  and dawn hunting, I absolutely prefere the non magnifying SFP.
My favourite reticle in such a situation is the German#4 in a good SFP scope
I stands out bold and black against the background, and draw the focus to the center like a good ghost ring sight.  ( at least that is what work wonders for my aging eyes Thunbs%20Up )
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2008 at 13:57
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Why do you prefers the non magnifying SFP in dusk and dawn?
When it's dark the reticle dissapears as it's to small.
 
Personally I stick to german no:1 as it's the only black reticle that is visiable when it's really dark. And the German no1 is far more precise and small when it comes to really accurate shots than the terrible no4 is.
 
Regards Technika
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2008 at 14:09
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 FFP might be good for hunting but for targets and zeroing I don't care for it. I bought a Zeiss Conquest 3-12X56 with #8 reticle a few months ago. I was considering a Nikon Monarch 6-24x50 or Burris Black Diamond 6-24x50 and I let my son talk me into the Conquest. There is no doubt better glass, brightness, clarity  and light gathering with  the Zeiss, but that gigantic reticle just takes the sparkle off it for me. Shooting targets at 100 yards is a chore. I have to make a 1/2" bold line vertically and horizontally to line up on. The crosshairs cover up a 1" circle bullseye at 100 yards. I am putting this scope for sale locally and hope to get most of my money back so I can get a scope more to my needs and wants. Be careful of those big growing crosshairs.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2008 at 14:37
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Dokter duck
 
If the same scope have had German no 1 you would have been able to choose what side of the last bullet hole you should aim at.
But with no 4 and 8 you are instead covering the target and thus you can't aim very well.
 
Regards Technika
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2008 at 14:45
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 Well,Technika If that is true and I'm not doubting you would it be worth  $120 to send it back to Zeiss for a reticle change? $90 for the reticle $15 to ship to and back. I love everything but that humongous reticle. Thinking about calling SWFA about atrad possibility.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2008 at 14:46
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 Sorry should have said a trade not atrad.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2008 at 15:01
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Technika I agree with you. The number 1 is my favorite also. it is just a big hassle to get it any more, plus the added expense.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2008 at 15:22
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technika.
Hunting moose, red deer and occasionally a roe or two, I prefere the SFP/#4 reticle.
Using dogs the moose tend to come fast, and on our land with dense woods/timber, shots are usually lesser than 50 yards. 
I such situations I like to crank down the scope to 1,5 or 2,5 to give me a good field of view.
 
On a former FFP, S&B 1,5-6x42 I had,  the crosshairs tend to dissapear on the lowest setting, just when I needed them most.
We also have bear on our land, and the thought of getting a close encounter with a bruin and not be able to see the crosshairs...not very comforting.
 
Right now a Nikon Monarc Gold 1,5.6x42 with #4 sits on my 35 Whelen, and for me, this is an ideal combo for such hunting.
 
I even got the #4 on my Zeiss 8x56 used mostly for stand hunting red deer and roe on a Ruger No 1 in 270 Win.
On my 338 Winmag a Leupold VXIII 2,5.8x36 with #4 is equally good both in the woods back home as on plane games hunt in RSA.
 
So for me and the way I hunt, the #4 on the second focal plane simply works.
That dosn´t mean this is the gospel of truth for everyone.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2008 at 15:26
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I like the #1 in theory as well, and I tried to get it in a couple of scopes.  The problem is, it's very difficult to nearly impossible to find here in the US, even in used scopes.  Also, this reticle isn't available in many new scopes at all anymore.  So, in most cases, it simply isn't an option here.  Occasionally, you can find one in a used scope off ebay, but in new scopes, reticles like the #4A, 7A, #8, #9, and various plex reticles dominate here.
 
I don't understand why Technika referred to the #4 as "terrible."  It combines the highly visible thick posts of a #8 without the post in the 12:00 position so the FOV is less obscured, along with the relatively thin crosshairs of a typical plex in the center.  I've used the #4A quite a bit at night, and I've found it to be quite visible.
 
I prefer FFP reticles in big game hunting scopes for the low light visibility advantage and SFP reticles in varmint and target scopes because the lines remain thin at higher powers for precision aiming.  FFP reticles are also beneficial for range estimation with a milling reticle, where you can range your target on any magnification without conversion.  The #1 in FFP does allow for precision aiming as well since it comes to a sharp point, but it wouldn't be very good for holdover because the thick portion of the post would block too much of a long distance target.


Edited by RifleDude - March/07/2008 at 15:35
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2008 at 15:33
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seawolf makes a good point.  A SFP reticle has advantages on a low powered variable, such as a dangerous game scope, where a FFP reticle gets extremely thin on the lowest magnifications.  S&B, for example, has started using a SFP reticle on its 1.1-4X24 model for this reason.  I haven't found this to be a problem on scopes with at least 6X on the upper end, though.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2008 at 23:10
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Good info guys!!!

Leupold still offers the German #1 from their customer shop and other sites if one really wants one but Ted's right, you really have to work to find one. I bet you can order one from SWFA as well.







Edited by mike650 - March/07/2008 at 23:57
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/08/2008 at 02:59
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It's really a pity that german no1 is out of fashion and more and more manufactrers dont make em anymore.
But They are still avaible and I think they are worth the hazzle to get them.
The reticle change in a Zeiss is not very expensive so I think the scope easaly is worth the change.
I have had reticle changed in a few Zeiss and SuB ( the SuB was expensive)
 
For close range on low magnification the FFP works great, but only with the right reticle.
THe No1 or Zeiss no11 works very well on 1,5X settings and I use that my self.
This boar was shot on 20 yards with the dogs close by....
In this case the scope is a 1,5-6x42 Zeiss with no11 reticle on a Mauser m66.
 
Regards Technika
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/08/2008 at 13:14
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While sitting here, still kind of giddy over my new IOR (and waiting for the Seekin mounts to arrive), I've enjoyed reading about some of the different style reticles that seem popular in other countries besides the US.
 
It's sure fun hunting behind a pack of hounds, thanks for sharing the photo, Techinka! So much of my misspent  youth was guiding hunters for bear and cougar's out west. I was always hesitant when a bear wouldn't tree and I had a client , trying to kill the thing on the ground without crippling the bear (which always led to hurt dogs). The hounds were always working their tails off walking and baying  and not ending the chase would cost me tired, sore footed hounds and precious time.
 
Living in Oregon and having  Leupold optic in your back yard, the Leupold has been a tradition around here, probably the scope choice with  the average good hunter. When we talk about FFP or SFP, there is really so much more to it than which one is best for different applications. For me and my last purchase choice, it was being more specific in what I was needing and looking for in a scope. Shifting to the tactical scope, trying to put together a long range hunting instrument that I have ballistic control by using target turrets is why I have ended up with this FFP optic.
 
For many years, most of us around here thought Leupolds were the best thing since sliced bread. Reliable (for the most part), rugged, good looking scope with a fantastic warranty and enough different models to be affordable by most. Rancid is correct that a FFP scope can be very annoying, especially for so many Americans that have never used anything but a SFP scope. If IOR offered this same scope in a SFP but with a bigger, bolder reticle, I wouldn't have needed to go the FFP route. Its no secert that Leopold makes one of the darkest scopes out there for the money you have to pay to get one. When you start talking about close to a grand for a rifle scope, I want to get the most bang for my buck and European optics are in my opinion, superior... But you have to take the good with the different when dealing with a product so many of us grew up unfamilar with.
 
I didn't realize how bright and clear good optics should be until a client showed me a pair of  swarovski 10x-42 SLC binoculars. I had a whole drawer full of junky ones that gave me eye fatigue and made it so unenjoyable to work ( the way you need to work them). But getting back to reticles, once I bought my swarvoski binos, I started killing much bigger blacktail bucks by spotting them still feeding out in very low light and shooting them (once I found them) using a leupold scope with a heavy duplex. That particular reticle is designed for low light (pretty sure it why it comes standard on most scopes they make) and leupold gets away with a duller sight picture because you can still see where your aming. BUT, what I've just discoverd, is by using a much brighter scope, you can shoot a lot farther away when the light gets dim and not have to look down by your feet during the last minutes of hunting.Wink
 
Its really hard to find the perfect scope because we use firearms in so many different ways and not all of us think the same way. I do think though, that there is a usefullness in the FFP reticle and if any of you start utilizing some of these newer higher calibers and factory rifles with much improved accuracy, you may just be doing the same research that led me down the path that goes against tradition:)
 
Thanks for reading...
 
 
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