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1st Focal Plane versus 2nd Focal Plane

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2012 at 10:52
tpcollins View Drop Down
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I understand the difference between the two but was wondering how useful having the recticle size increase with magnification really is? For 1-4x24mm tacticle scopes, how many manufactures make FFP for their illuminated recticles? Thanks.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2012 at 11:10
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Usefulness: it depends on the reticle design, your shooting needs, and your general preferences.
FFP reticles are great for ranging targets and for "doping" shots, or adjusting for windage and elevation on the reticle rather than on the turrets. Be aware that ranging with an FFP reticle is a very perishable skill, do it often to do it well.  Doping on the reticle is not tough, but does take some understanding of the reticle design and requires you to know ballistics for that round in those conditions.

The primary difficulty with many FFP reticles is that the reticle is too big at max magnification or too small at lowest magnification.  This is less an issue with the good 1-4s since they have built in certain features to offset.  As an example, one of SWFA's SS1-4  reticles has a larger "donut" around the cross-hairs, it helps draw the eye to the center.

What are you looking at?  On what do you wish to mount it?  How will it be used?  At what ranges will you be shooting?

Personally, I like 1-4s when a little precision might be needed out to 300 yards or so.  If your needs are less precise, a good red dot  is faster on target (assuming equal time spent training) and can be simpler to operate.

Hope it helps.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2012 at 11:12
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Well, first off on FFP scope the reticle doesn't increase in size. It is always correct to what power the scope is on. On a SFP scope the reticle covers more of the target as power is turned down.
 As far as who all makes FFP 1-4's? There are getting to be more and more of them. SS, S&B, NF, Vortex, USO, all come to mind off the top of my head.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2012 at 11:18
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Important point, and very true: FFP reticles never change in size with respect to the target;  however, they do get larger or smaller with magnification changes, but do so in exact proportion to the targets increase/decrease in size as magnification changes.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2012 at 11:39
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A few come to mind:
Pride Fowler 1-4x24
SWFA SS 1-4x24
USO 1-4x22
Vortex 1-4x24
 
 
Also:
IOR Valdada 1-10x26
Leupold 1-6x20
Bushnell 1-6.5x24
Barska 1.5-4.5x20
 
I'm not quite sure if all of these are Illuminated.I'm sure there are a few more that I forgot but I'm sure others will chime in!
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2012 at 17:08
tpcollins View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Usefulness: it depends on the reticle design, your shooting needs, and your general preferences.  What are you looking at?  On what do you wish to mount it?  How will it be used?  At what ranges will you be shooting?
 
 
I was recently diagnosed with "black rifle disease' and last week I bought a Colt LE 6920 AR15. My uses will be on coyotes out to 200 yards, (250 would be a really long shot I would think), plinking, and just making it go bang-bang-bang. Plus if anyone tried to break into my house they could be in for a surprise. I have a Sightron II 4-16x44mm on my .243 and a Sightron II Big Sky 6-24x44mm on my .204 Tikka which I would use for chucks and whatever at longer distances.  I'll probably order a Burris P.E.P.R. mount, right now the $400 Burris MTAC 1-4x24mm is probably "good enough" for what I need but I prefer the recticle on the $700 the Burris XTR more. None of these advertise as a FFP so I assume they are not but I may call them Monday to find out. Thanks.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2012 at 17:13
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Colt 6920 is a fine, fine AR, friend. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2012 at 20:33
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Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Colt 6920 is a fine, fine AR, friend. 
 
 
 
My dad always said if you're going to be a bear, be a grizzly.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/23/2012 at 06:31
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I'm really glad this topic came up. I'm new to scopes and in the market for one and this topic interests me. Can some knowledgeable members educate me on the Pros and Cons of SFP and the Pros and Cons of FFP? Sightron made the business decision to currently only offer SFP while other manufacturers also offer FFP. I was seriously considering Sightron, but I need to know more about these two types of reticles.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/23/2012 at 06:59
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Originally posted by 2gumby2 2gumby2 wrote:

I'm really glad this topic came up. I'm new to scopes and in the market for one and this topic interests me. Can some knowledgeable members educate me on the Pros and Cons of SFP and the Pros and Cons of FFP? Sightron made the business decision to currently only offer SFP while other manufacturers also offer FFP. I was seriously considering Sightron, but I need to know more about these two types of reticles.

What applications are you considering? 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/23/2012 at 08:26
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in short range rifle, the only advantage ffp offers is in the reticle design offered by only a few scope makers. swfa short range ffp when turned through the magnification range, actually give two different reticles, which allows the user more utility at the extreme ranges of magnification that is a downfall of alot of ffp designs. (as RC mentions above). Some designs turn thru their magnifications ranges with in a very short turn of the 360 deg. making the image jump back and forth and in effect only having a high and low setting. (SWfa 1x4 takes advantage of this ). The wider the range of the magnification the worse the problem. (higher erector ratio) while a sfp with a high erector ratio won't see this problem as much.
most shooters of ars are better off with something like the ss 3x9 for all around use.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/23/2012 at 18:47
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I'm not putting a 3-9 on my Colt AR,  looking for something in the 1-4x24mm range.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/23/2012 at 19:18
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Whats the "budget" ? 

 
Don't get FFP or SFP .... get DFP
 
 
Dual Focal ... has BOTH !!!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/24/2012 at 08:23
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Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Originally posted by 2gumby2 2gumby2 wrote:

I'm really glad this topic came up. I'm new to scopes and in the market for one and this topic interests me. Can some knowledgeable members educate me on the Pros and Cons of SFP and the Pros and Cons of FFP? Sightron made the business decision to currently only offer SFP while other manufacturers also offer FFP. I was seriously considering Sightron, but I need to know more about these two types of reticles.

What applications are you considering? 
I should have mentioned my application. I am a recreational target shooter and will likely not be shooting further than 600 meters or so. I recently ordered a new Remington Model 700 in .280 Remington caliber and do all my shooting at my brothers farm.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/24/2012 at 08:27
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I forgot to mention that my budget is around $800 for a new scope.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/24/2012 at 08:37
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Originally posted by tpcollins tpcollins wrote:

I'm not putting a 3-9 on my Colt AR,  looking for something in the 1-4x24mm range.
Thats unfortunate, unless your just using it for 3-gun you will be missing alot of shooting opportunities.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/24/2012 at 09:14
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

Originally posted by tpcollins tpcollins wrote:

I'm not putting a 3-9 on my Colt AR,  looking for something in the 1-4x24mm range.
Thats unfortunate, unless your just using it for 3-gun you will be missing alot of shooting opportunities.
 
All depends on the application of the AR, I have ARs with optics ranging from no magnification reflex(CQB rig) up to 6-24 variable (24 inch Varmint Rig).  For a flexible multirole AR a 3-9 isn't a bad choice, nor is a 1-4/1-6/1-8 depending on budget etc.  If the OP is looking for that flexible optic and is hanging up on FFP or SFP and the merits of each ... the reticle would be the big factor.  The new SWFA 1-6 has a well thought out FFP reticle and when up on 6x the circle disappears and makes it nice and clean.  If he has more than $1k to spend the USO DFP series offers the best of both.  Vortex has jumped into the 1-6 game but I don't care for their reticle.  With all that said, the OP seems to be set on a 1-4 ... The USO DFP 1-4 would be my first pick with the SWFA SS 1-4 Circle Mildot capped turrents second.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/24/2012 at 09:30
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If your main use is for coyotes, I'd consider one of the E dot sights.   easily gets to 300 yds without any trouble.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/24/2012 at 09:51
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the 1-6 swfa isn't out yet, one disadvantage (to some eyes of course) in scopes that specialize in reticle use at the extreme ends of the magnification range, what do you do in the middle? Ars are funny ducks, everyone wants to turn them into a do everything, its best, just as any other rifle to task specific it. I use

Grizzley Arms, upper, Kreiger barrel, heavy barrel 24" RRa lower, 2-stage trigger, NF 3.5x25 for long range varmit
Bushmaster, mk 4 6x24 for trash shooting
RRA operator with leo prismatic,, or eotec (depends on mood)
NFA lower with trash uppers, including Olympus,bushmaster,and DPMS
458 socom upper, rra lower, anything from eo,dots, or mk 4 leo  1.5x5
however I don' think it's going to help the op   oh well
it it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck -- shoot it .
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/24/2012 at 10:34
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If the OP is set on a 1-4x24, then I would recommend a SFP scope. Unless your talking about the donut of death reticle in the SS 1-4x or 1-6x, as these reticle are balanced between the low and high end magnifications. At low end the donut is the aiming device, and is quick and clear for close in targets, and still adequate for distance. At high end, the donut disappears and the mildot reticle becomes the aiming device for more precise shots on distant targets. My only issue with FFP scopes, is the eye box is so critical. While it really won't make that much of a difference at close quarters, it just bothers me.
The reason I recommend a SFP for a 1-4x scope is the eyebox is not as critical, and it gives me more confidence (real or imagined). Plus, a 1-4x would rarely be used beyond 400yds, and would probably be used at 4x at longer ranges, where a mildot or BDC reticle would be accurate.
Now if your eye is not centered with the scope, then aiming errors would probably be the same, be it a SFP, or FFP reticle. I just find the SFP reticle faster at close range, because I'm not rattled by a fuzzy reticle; that's just me though. Your results may be different.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/24/2012 at 10:39
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I agree with yah Dale ... right tool for the job is the ticket.   The in between powers like you mentioned can be suspect on some of the lower power variables.  On the SWFA 1-4 I use it on 1x or 4x.  The IOR pitbull has a model with a nice short throw that is 1x and 4x only that is a nice little scope.  This brings the ELCAN Specter into play which is a top notich optic, again a 1x or 4x via throw lever.  It has a BDC though so its ammo specific which some like and some don't.  I like the USO 1.5-6 that I have on my LR-308 a lot and it fits that rifle well for my needs.  On my non-varmint ARs I like reflexs and ACOGs for speed and no batteries or buttons/dials.  The ACOG BDC requires use of specific ammo or hand loads tailored and tested but I dn't mind reloading 62g non steel core to match the reticle for other uses.  The 3 gun crowd loves the 1-4/1-6/1-8 for there use.  "tactical" optics have come a LONG way the past 10 years, will have that when fighting wars, and the civilian end user now has tons of options.
 
Pick the right tool for the job and then buy the best tool you can afford ... buying a Hi-Lux for your LWRC is like putting 85 octane in your ferrari ... then they shift without using the clutch and feed it steel wolf ammo ... drives me crazy when people do that. 
 
anyway ... ramble off
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/24/2012 at 16:35
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

Thats unfortunate, unless your just using it for 3-gun you will be missing alot of shooting opportunities.
 
 
you must have missed this later in the thread . . .
 
 
Originally posted by tpcollins tpcollins wrote:

. . . My uses will be on coyotes out to 200 yards . . .
I have a Sightron II 4-16x44mm on my .243 and a Sightron II Big Sky 6-24x44mm on my .204 Tikka which I would use for chucks and whatever at longer distances.
 
 
Something in a 1-4x24mm or so is the only scope going on my AR.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/24/2012 at 20:46
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Here is one I like
It's SFP, as well as this one


Edited by BeltFed - April/24/2012 at 20:51
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/25/2012 at 05:52
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Originally posted by BeltFed BeltFed wrote:

If the OP is set on a 1-4x24, then I would recommend a SFP scope. Unless your talking about the donut of death reticle in the SS 1-4x or 1-6x, as these reticle are balanced between the low and high end magnifications. At low end the donut is the aiming device, and is quick and clear for close in targets, and still adequate for distance. At high end, the donut disappears and the mildot reticle becomes the aiming device for more precise shots on distant targets. My only issue with FFP scopes, is the eye box is so critical. While it really won't make that much of a difference at close quarters, it just bothers me.
The reason I recommend a SFP for a 1-4x scope is the eyebox is not as critical, and it gives me more confidence (real or imagined). Plus, a 1-4x would rarely be used beyond 400yds, and would probably be used at 4x at longer ranges, where a mildot or BDC reticle would be accurate.
Now if your eye is not centered with the scope, then aiming errors would probably be the same, be it a SFP, or FFP reticle. I just find the SFP reticle faster at close range, because I'm not rattled by a fuzzy reticle; that's just me though. Your results may be different.
What is meant by the term "eyebox"?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/25/2012 at 07:17
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Beltfred - I really like the recticle on the first Vortex link . . .
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