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16" AR accuracy issue?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/10/2009 at 16:25
the Toukster View Drop Down
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Can you help me understand where I should be on paper.

This is the rig.
.223/556 16" light weight barrel (DPMS)
short gas tube ( don't know if that matters)

Optics:
Bushnell trophy 1x32 red dot

rounds:
55gr hornady vmax.

I shoot 100yds on a bench with bags, slow fire or 1 rd per second, both get the same result. I use 8" targets and hit it every time no problem, bulls-eye some times, but my grouping is sporadic, MOA does not apply with me. Pretty much all over the 8" target. Is this right for this setup or do I just suck? I grew up with shotguns, this is my first AR, just wanted to know if can improve.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/10/2009 at 17:23
Rancid Coolaid View Drop Down
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Where you "should" be is a very subjective thing. 

What is your trigger pull weight?  A lighter, smoother trigger will help allot!  If your trigger sucks, a good smith can clean it up, but a better option is an after-market match trigger.

If your gun can do 4 MOA and your scope is a 4MOA dot, 8 inches is about what you can expect (though you can probably do better with iron sites, in truth.)

If you want more precision at paper-punching, I'd get a magnified scope with crosshairs, that'll tell you more.  Practice dry firing and watch what happens to the dot when you squeeze the trigger.

It could be many things, and 8 inches might be as good as the setup will get.  With changes, you can get a decent gun down to about 1" or 1.5" at 100 yards.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/10/2009 at 17:31
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Also if you are shooting off bags with a non free floated light weight barrel it might pushing your POI of a little.   Different amounts of pressure and a cold to hot barrel will change things.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/10/2009 at 18:49
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Where you "should" be is a very subjective thing. 

What is your trigger pull weight?  A lighter, smoother trigger will help allot!  If your trigger sucks, a good smith can clean it up, but a better option is an after-market match trigger.

If your gun can do 4 MOA and your scope is a 4MOA dot, 8 inches is about what you can expect (though you can probably do better with iron sites, in truth.)

If you want more precision at paper-punching, I'd get a magnified scope with crosshairs, that'll tell you more.  Practice dry firing and watch what happens to the dot when you squeeze the trigger.

It could be many things, and 8 inches might be as good as the setup will get.  With changes, you can get a decent gun down to about 1" or 1.5" at 100 yards.
 
I have a bushnel trophy red dot and, IMO, it is not very precise and is not for your precision type shooting.  I agree with RC, that unless you get a scope with cross hairs your going to be frustrated.
Have you fired the weapon without a scope, iron sites?
What brightness are you using?  I know you probably know this but I ask anyway just to be sure.  You know the brightness level changes the the size of your dot slightly and at a 100 yds thats going to change your POI which affects your group size. 
The last thing is gonna be about your target.  What kind of target are you shooting at?  if your target has some kind of out line that you can fit your dot in the same way each time you shoot, and you can make your site picture the same each time, then you might get a better group.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/10/2009 at 19:58
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Rancid Coolaid hit the nail right -on.
 Try some Federal Gold Medal Match ammo. This is the stuff by which all others is measured by. Get a higher-mag scope and try it out. These items should tell the story.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/10/2009 at 21:34
the Toukster View Drop Down
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I've heard free floating will help with accuracy. Trigger control I'm always working on, the rifle is new and I keep it spotless so I don't think its a dirty trigger, I've also heard that upgrading the trigger will help. These are upgrades that are pretty straight forward.

Optics.... that's a beast. I have been researching for months on a proper scope for my AR. Narrowed it down to the Sightron sii big sky 1.25-5 or Nikon Monarch African 1.1-4 (quality on a budget i think). I haven't heard anyone say they are good on an AR. I'm still researching.

What I haven't heard is the MOA changing with brightness.  I'm shooting at a black Shoot-N-C....  I will try dimming it tomorrow and look for some Fed ammo to see it that helps.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/11/2009 at 02:59
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Now toukster, 
Try this, change the brightness of your dot while looking through your scope.  You will see the brighter you go, the less precise your dot becomes, mine increases or gets blurry the brighter I go.  This change, when aiming, gives you a different site picture which can change where your bullets are going to hit.  It is not as precise as having the same size cross hairs all of the time.  Your target, using the red, hides behind a larger area, this causes inprecision.  At a 100+ yards thats going to change accuracy/ precision a lot.  Your still gonna be on paper, but your not gonna have as tight of groups.
 
IMO, red dots are made to hit the target quicly, not precisley hit the target. 
 
In the PD, we use the red dots on our AR's for close quarter and rapid target accqusition never, (never say never), for precision shots...
Good luck!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/11/2009 at 12:47
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Just an FYI, I have one of those Sightron S2 Bigsky 1.25-5x and think it would make an excellent scope for an AR.  Get one of the SWFA S.S.A.L.T mounts to go with it which are very nice as well and you would have a very good setup.

Mine sits on a lever gun, but I have considered putting it on an AR many times.  It even has resetable knobs so you can mess with elevation for longer shots as well.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/14/2009 at 11:05
Rancid Coolaid View Drop Down
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Toukster, your trigger is creepy and gritty due to being dirty, it is because the surfaces do not mater perfectly. it was a mass-produced part that got no detail work prior to going into your gun.  "Match" triggers are more expensive because the parts have been mated to move more cleanly in concert.  With some time and skill, even your trigger could be cleaned up to break better.

As for optics, it's tough to say what you will like and what you "need."  Red dots aren't precision aiming tools, but the smaller the dot, the more precise it can be (understanding that a dot that covers 5 inches at 100 yards will never give you 1MOA accuracy with regularity, simply because you cannot hold the exact same point of aim.)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/14/2009 at 15:05
the Toukster View Drop Down
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Okay, that makes sense as far as the trigger.
It seems that 8" groups are reasonable, I can only see the target as a large dot a 100yds, aiming at the middle and hoping for the best.
 So, in order to get control of grouping, go with better optics 1st. That way I can get an idea of the other issues which can bring, say 5" groups to 1".

I really appreciate your input. I will make Optics the starting point.

One last question.... i have my eye on the Sightron sii bs, but now i see the Bushnell 4200 1.25-4 and Millet DMS-1. The Millet would be nice price, i could get that now, but the Bushnell seems to be one of the best at the price range, i'd have to get that after tax returns. Is it worth the save up for plinking, 3 gun competitions, and possibly hog hunting or will the Millet do just fine?  ( maybe this should be in another forum)..
Thanks again.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/14/2009 at 15:14
supertool73 View Drop Down
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The sightron and the Bushnell will have very similar glass quality.  I have not looked through that specific bushnell, but I have a couple other 4200s and they compare nicely to the S2 big sky.  The differnce in price will most account for the illumination.  I have looked through very few illuminated scopes that actully work like they need to.  If illumination is something you need I would suggest getting a Trijicon and calling it a day.  Optically as good as anything and the illumination is the best bare none.

I have not looked through the millet, but optically it is reportably lower than the other two.  Rancid has had that millet though, I am sure he will fill you in on it. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/14/2009 at 16:04
Rancid Coolaid View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Toukster, your trigger is creepy and gritty NOT due to being dirty, it is because the surfaces do not mater perfectly. it was a mass-produced part that got no detail work prior to going into your gun.  "Match" triggers are more expensive because the parts have been mated to move more cleanly in concert.  With some time and skill, even your trigger could be cleaned up to break better.

As for optics, it's tough to say what you will like and what you "need."  Red dots aren't precision aiming tools, but the smaller the dot, the more precise it can be (understanding that a dot that covers 5 inches at 100 yards will never give you 1MOA accuracy with regularity, simply because you cannot hold the exact same point of aim.)



Your trigger is NOT due to dirt, it is machining, sorry, my initial post left out the most important word in the thought.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/14/2009 at 16:12
Rancid Coolaid View Drop Down
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The Millett is OK, it is what you shoudl expect of a $200 scope - optics are reasonably clear.

My guess is that the 4200 is optically better - that is what I've heard from other knowledgeable shooters.  Having not owned or shot this scope, I cannot say first-hand.

I have no experience with the S2 in question either, but I did play with an S3 and liked the glass.


With the hog hunting comment, you've now taken this to a whole new level - I do love killing hogs; however a .223 would only be recommended if you had a great deal of precision and accuracy.  My choice shot is through the ear, and that might require more scope than a 1-4X.  My Millett was actually on a Springfield SOCOM that was my hog gun, I sold it for numerous reasons - not the least of whichw as that I felt I needed more magnification to put the bullet where I wanted it.

What is your budget?

(My .308 SOCOM for hogs has been replaced with a 6.8 upper on my AR, topped with a 2.5-10X Trijicon - it is a letahal combination. And I went for MUCh more magnification because the bullet needs to be precisely placed and the 1-4X I had just didn't give me that precision.)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/15/2009 at 16:23
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Originally posted by the Toukster the Toukster wrote:

Can you help me understand where I should be on paper.

This is the rig.
.223/556 16" light weight barrel (DPMS)
short gas tube ( don't know if that matters)

Optics:
Bushnell trophy 1x32 red dot

rounds:
55gr hornady vmax.

I shoot 100yds on a bench with bags, slow fire or 1 rd per second, both get the same result. I use 8" targets and hit it every time no problem, bulls-eye some times, but my grouping is sporadic, MOA does not apply with me. Pretty much all over the 8" target. Is this right for this setup or do I just suck? I grew up with shotguns, this is my first AR, just wanted to know if can improve.
 
Most of the DMPS with the short barrels come with a 1-9 twist. This is better for 62-70 grain bullets.  The 45-55 grain bullets do better with a 1-12 twist barrel. Try heaver bullets and you should see your groups get smaller.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/03/2009 at 22:25
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if you are wanting to punch paper or small game go with more power 3-9x40 or 4-12x40. for varmits 6-24x40. 1.5-4 is great for moving targets but not so better for shooting groups at 100+yd. IMO.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2009 at 09:51
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3_tens,
 
That is not my general experience with 1-9 twist 16" barrels. I have gotten fine accuracy with bullets as light as 40 grains in such barrels, and have on occasion had a hard time getting bullets in the 70-grain range to stabilize, probably because of the relatively low muzzle velocity. A lot depends on the specific bullet, of course, but I have gotten very good accuracy from 55's from 16" 1-9 barrels.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/11/2009 at 21:20
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I'd suggest the 3-9x42  Super Sniper and if that doesnt bring you under 2 inch group then change the trigger to Gazelle and if you want to be under 1 inch on your groups send the upper to White Oak Armory and have them re-barrel it or go over it to see what is wrong or at the very least talk to DPMS these rifles should do no worse than 2 inches at 100 yds with correct optics and a decent trigger.

Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - January/31/2010 at 20:25
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2010 at 16:59
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I have  bushmaster ORC 16". I currently have a weaver 1-3x20. I have shot horandy 75grain match and federal 60grain soft point. With factory combat trigger am able to shoot less than 1.5 usually closer to an inch. I just got a triggger job and once I am able to get some more ammo I gonna put my Zeiss 2.5-8 on there.  I would say the biggest prob is your trigger pull. If you are not smooth with that thing it will ruin it eveyr shot. Settle up all nice and comfy. Be very smooth with the trigger. Try not to flinch or jerk. I have heard of ppl shooting sub 1inch groups with aimpoints off sandbags.   I personally am not a fan of electronics. I knwo they are built very tough. But I like good ol glass.  I say get a good trigger in there, and take it to the range and use good trigger control. You def should be less than 2 inches I would expect  with good ammo. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/01/2010 at 07:55
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Also I dont know how attached you are to the red dot. But if you are wanting something more precise. Get a scope. 1-3, 2-7, 3-9 at least. 
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