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10mm FBI study

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/23/2008 at 10:46
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Someone over at Glock Talk was able to get a confidential copy of an FBI report on the 10mm auto


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/23/2008 at 11:21
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        Laugh%20Above
 
   But, but, I just got a 9mm.....
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/23/2008 at 11:35
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FBI is putting our tax dollars to "work"
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/23/2008 at 11:37
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Originally posted by RONK RONK wrote:

     
        Laugh%20Above
 
   But, but, I just got a 9mm.....
 


Smart move
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/23/2008 at 15:25
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That is hilarious.
 
What's with the .40?? A Kaboom?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/23/2008 at 16:47
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Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

That is hilarious.
 
What's with the .40?? A Kaboom?


I wondered about that but I think it is relative to the 10mm damage. I like the .45 trajectory and the flip off.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/23/2008 at 17:04
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Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

That is hilarious.
 
What's with the .40?? A Kaboom?
 
Yep!
 Apparently the feed ramp is cut slightly different in the Glock .40 cal. models than it is in the other models and calibers, leaving the case head slightly unsupported, and historically that is the reason the .40s have a much greater incidence of kabooms, statistically speaking.
 
 edited for grammer


Edited by RONK - March/23/2008 at 17:06
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/23/2008 at 17:11
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I have read that the .40 cal Glocks seem to have more issues than the rest of the line, but I didn't know why. Thanks for that, Ron.
 
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/23/2008 at 17:22
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All Glocks have unsupported areas that are common to most autoloading pistols. I've read the same about the .40 Glocks. My G20 has eaten up plenty of Cor-Bon and Double Tap 10mm without a problem. The Glock .40's are the most popular law enforcement pistols out there so I'm not sure what to think
One thing I've seen is that a lot of kaboom reports are not substantiated. Also, there are a ton of people reloading with lead bullets. This is a no-no with all polygonal rifled barrels including my HK's. The .40 Short and Weak is a strong case and can handle any of the pressures the 10mm does.
I'm a Glock Talk regular and I just don't see how this got going.


Edited by tahqua - March/23/2008 at 17:23
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/23/2008 at 17:25
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 I'm certainly no expert, but the unsupported case head is most often touted as the biggest factor, it seems.  I think .40 factory ammo runs at higher pressures than the other cartridges, leaving less of a fudge factor.
 Factory ammo seldom causes problems though, according to some.  Many of the kabooms are occurring with reloads, and a good percentage of them are with lead, non-jacketed bullets.  Evidently the polygonal Glock rifling is susceptible to heavy cumulative lead fouling, which raises pressures over the top.  The general concensus is to stick with factory jacketed bullet loads for relative safety assurance.
 
 Edited to note: Posted this before reading Doug's latest reply.
 Edited again to correct Doug's name
 
 Cheaptrick: Wasn't there an animation of "How A Glock Works" in that Arfcom gif. thread you posted the other day?
 That explains it better than I can.
 


Edited by RONK - March/23/2008 at 18:02
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/23/2008 at 17:33
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You can reload jacketed bullets with no problems also. I use Sierra and XTP in all my Glocks.
Here is a search from GT http://glocktalk.com/forums/search.php?searchid=682659
You can see there is a ton of hits and like I said, there is a ton of BS%20Flag
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/23/2008 at 17:33
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Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

All Glocks have unsupported areas that are common to most autoloading pistols. I've read the same about the .40 Glocks. My G20 has eaten up plenty of Cor-Bon and Double Tap 10mm without a problem. The Glock .40's are the most popular law enforcement pistols out there so I'm not sure what to think
One thing I've seen is that a lot of kaboom reports are not substantiated. Also, there are a ton of people reloading with lead bullets. This is a no-no with all polygonal rifled barrels including my HK's. The .40 Short and Weak is a strong case and can handle any of the pressures the 10mm does.
I'm a Glock Talk regular and I just don't see how this got going.
 
  Ted,  Doug, when you compare your different Glocks, is there any way to tell if there is a dimensional difference in the size of the exposed case head area, by looking at it from below or something?


Edited by RONK - March/23/2008 at 18:03
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/23/2008 at 17:56
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Ron, it's me Doug. Ted is probably at a parade in San Francisco right now.
I did a quick tear down on two of my guns and dropped some rounds in. There wasn't a bit of difference to the eye. That was a 9mm and 10mm comparo. I'll talk to a friend who has a .45 and a .40 and he can compare.
I'll tear down a BHP, HK USP and a 1911 for more spice when I get time.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/23/2008 at 18:00
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 I know it's you, Doug.
 Temporary brain damage, sorry!
 Ted is probably WHERE??!!   Shocked
 Thanks for checking on the head support issue. I was curious.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/23/2008 at 18:03
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Originally posted by RONK RONK wrote:

 I know it's you, Doug.
 Temporary brain damage, sorry!
 Ted is probably WHERE??!!   Shocked
 Thanks for checking on the head support issue. I was curious.

You heard where Ted is.  Lets not make an issue out of it.Big%20Grin
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/23/2008 at 18:05
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Originally posted by ckk1106 ckk1106 wrote:

Originally posted by RONK RONK wrote:

 I know it's you, Doug.
 Temporary brain damage, sorry!
 Ted is probably WHERE??!!   Shocked
 Thanks for checking on the head support issue. I was curious.

You heard where Ted is.  Lets not make an issue out of it.Big%20Grin
 
 Sorry
 
  Big%20Smile
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/23/2008 at 18:50
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Ron, it's me Doug. Ted is probably at a parade in San Francisco right now.
Laugh
 
when a 40 and a 10 are compared in the 1911 format, the biggest difference is observed-
none--- most blown glocks occur in IDPA making major with 200 gr bullets, not lead accumulation. 10 cases are really longer than needed and the bullet takes up a lot of unessary capacity, seating a bullet out in a 40 to work in a 1911 magazine will give the same ballistics as any 10. there is no problem what ever with loading glocks with cast lead bullets, if in doubt check out brianenos.com , in glocks the biggest problem with loading to major with the 40 is the torque, which changes the poi considerably, caused by the barrel shifting in lock up. The chamber dimensions of a 40 glock are liberal and there is a term called "glock ring" around the base of each 40 case that will not allow these cases to be used in something like a barsto 40 1911 barrel. which is also more supported and better for making major with 200 gr bullets.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/23/2008 at 19:15
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These major power factor guys are stretching to over 35k psi without custom, fully supported barrels in their .40's. We have seen it with the .38 Super crowd, too. Some people just don't get it when they are on the edge.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/23/2008 at 19:23
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

Ron, it's me Doug. Ted is probably at a parade in San Francisco right now.
Laugh
 
when a 40 and a 10 are compared in the 1911 format, the biggest difference is observed-
none--- most blown glocks occur in IDPA making major with 200 gr bullets, not lead accumulation. 10 cases are really longer than needed and the bullet takes up a lot of unessary capacity, seating a bullet out in a 40 to work in a 1911 magazine will give the same ballistics as any 10. there is no problem what ever with loading glocks with cast lead bullets, if in doubt check out brianenos.com , in glocks the biggest problem with loading to major with the 40 is the torque, which changes the poi considerably, caused by the barrel shifting in lock up. The chamber dimensions of a 40 glock are liberal and there is a term called "glock ring" around the base of each 40 case that will not allow these cases to be used in something like a barsto 40 1911 barrel. which is also more supported and better for making major with 200 gr bullets.


Where are you getting this from, Dale. I load for both. The 10mm has more case capacity, being 5mm longer and is SAAMI rated for 37.5K versus 35K for the S&W.


Edited by tahqua - March/23/2008 at 19:26
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2008 at 08:36
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when the OAL of both rounds for fit in 1911 mags is the same so is the capacity. This is how the 200 grs are making major, in IPSC which uses the sti 40 instead of glocks. The 10 has more capacity only when the length of the 40 is restricted to the approx. 19 mm of the glock mags. Not saying that anyone should mess with standard 40 in glocks, it is being done quite a bit-- just that this is where most of the rumours come from

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2008 at 08:41
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I omitted the fact that you were talking about OAL in 1911 mags, thanks.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2008 at 18:29
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Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

Ron, it's me Doug. Ted is probably at a parade in San Francisco right now.
 
Laugh
 
 
SSSTHOPPP ITT!!!!
Queen
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2008 at 21:21
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Back to the original post. The FBI had their 10mm loaded down so the recoil wouldn't hurt their sensitive little hands,and so they could recover from recoil faster. That is where S&W got the idea Thinkingto make the 40S&W; less velocity needed, less powder. Less powder needed shorter case, and small pistol primer helped keep pressures close. Shorter cases could be used in 9mm frames that more people could use. Two%20GunsS&W started with the 4006 that was a beefed up overbuilt 5906 with a 11rd magazine. Beretta and Glock were next with higher rd capacity and the rest is history. Oh yea, the original 10mm pill was 200gr., and original 40S&W pill was 180gr.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/27/2008 at 07:58
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several predecessors to the 10-- 41 action express, 40/45, but a guy by the name of Dave Sanford once pres. of IPSC and editor of front site actually was the first,  this was about 2 years before jenks and S&W started playing with it. Occured way back when the 10 was getting started. the 10's did not feed very well in ipsc and require a 24-26 lb spring which takes an RO and the shooter to load the guns. Sanford cut the 10 mm cases down and had guns built for them and shot for several years. S&W didn't like the lg pistol primer for smaller frame, introduced this and the rd. Tom Campbell from S&W was using the 10 in the older smiths about this same time. That summer glock introduced the 40 in the 17 frame which didn't work unti they modified it to take a cross pin recoil lug seen today.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/04/2008 at 05:12
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Meeting major power factor is not hard to do with a .40 guys.... Just pick your powder and bullet weight while using your head. Ive been racing a Glock 35 for years and my duty glock 22 before that, and a HK usp40 before that....
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