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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/22/2008 at 22:23
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Hey there, I've been browsing the site for the past couple of weeks, and I must say it's excellent! Bandito  I've gone from knowing almost nothing to having a basic idea of what to look for at different price ranges and for different purposes.  I've been looking for a scope for my .22 to get back into target shooting, and I was wondering if I could get some information/advice about some of the scopes I'm looking at. 

800067 Simmons%206.5-20x50%20Whitetail%20Classic%20Rifle%20Scope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 Simmons 6.5-20x50 Whitetail Classic Rifle Scope
  • Granite
  • Truplex
  • 1"
  • Adjustable Objective
  • Close-Out Price
SWFA: $99.95
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MAPV451440 Mueller%204.5-14x40%20APV%20Riflescope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 Mueller 4.5-14x40 APV Riflescope
  • Matte
  • APV Plex
  • 1"
  • Adjustable Objective
SWFA: $114.95
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716185 Bushnell%206-18x50%20Banner%20Dusk%20&%20Dawn%20Air%20Gun%20Scope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 Bushnell 6-18x50 Banner Dusk & Dawn Air Gun Scope
  • Matte
  • Multi-X
  • 1"
  • Adjustable Objective
  • Break-Barrel Air Rifles and Centerfire Compatible
SWFA: $119.95
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MT852544 Mueller%208.5-25x44%20Tactical%20Riflescope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 Mueller 8.5-25x44 Tactical Riflescope
  • Matte
  • Mil-Dot
  • 1"
  • Adjustable Objective
SWFA: $159.95
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/23/2008 at 01:32
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As you get deep into target shooting with 22s (my passion) you'll find that 100yds is doable but that 50 is more fun for most people. The wind just becomes too much of a factor at 100 yds. You also discover that magnification rocks at 50yds, and that 24x is probably going to be a must to see 22 holes at 100 yds.

The Simmons Whitetail Classic is a good clear and very bright scope. The turrets aren't really the best for target shooting and the cross hairs are a bit thick but it was designed as a low light hunter. I have one and found it to be a good scope but it's huge! Mine lived on my best 10/22 but I eventually replaced it with with something a bit smaller but much more expensive.


The Simmons Whitetail Classic on a Ruger 10/22.

The Mueller APV is a decent starter rimfire scope. The reticle (cross hairs) are a bit thick, but it's a pretty fair starter scope and is very popular first scope for 50 yard target shooting, just don't expect repeatability from the windage and elevation knobs.

I haven't used a Banner in 10-15 years so I can't say much other than to say that it's probably on about the level of the APV.

My only Mueller is the 8.5-25x50 Eradicator and not the Tactical. Muellers are made in China but use good quality Japanese glass (a very good thing), and Muller stands behind their stuff 100%. My Eradicator has only two strikes against it. 1) Eye placement is super critical, and 2) the dot in the cross hairs is borderline too big for target work - but no worse than the thick cross hairs used on some other scopes. I have no idea how the cross hairs are on the Tactical, but eye placement is even more critical than the Eradicator because of the smaller objective.

Other than the Legend having better glass than the Banner I can't comment.

That's about all I can tell you about them. Of those listed I'd take a close look at the Mueller Tactical - in person if possible. None of these scopes are ideal choice but you should be able to find one that fits your needs. A huge step up is a Weaver V24 but that's almost double your budget.




Edited by sholling - September/23/2008 at 11:09
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/23/2008 at 10:17
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Regarding Burris Z rings, I have had some serious problems with them. I used them on a powerful spring gun and the rings tipped on the bases from recoil. I don't think there is enough clamping area on them. They may work better with the adapter you mention but I would not use a factory 3/8"-11mm dovetail with the Z's.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/23/2008 at 16:07
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Originally posted by scholling scholling wrote:

That's about all I can tell you about them. Of those listed I'd take a close look at the Mueller Tactical - in person if possible. None of these scopes are ideal choice but you should be able to find one that fits your needs. A huge step up is a Weaver V24 but that's almost double your budget.


Unfortunately I don't think it will be possible for me to do an in-store comparison.  I called two local sporting goods stores (Gander Mtn. and Bass Pro Shop) and neither of them carry Muellers.  Both had the Bushnell Banners, and Bass Pro Shop had the Legend.  Perhaps I'll give Dick's Sporting Goods a call, though I don't expect they will have them either.  The only place locally that had Muellers was Dunhams, and the local store recently went out of business.

Between the WTC, the APV, and the Eradicator, how would you rate them in terms of clarity/brightness?  I'm also a little bit curious about the Weaver you mentioned.  I've often read on the forums that it's generally better to go with the better glass over higher magnification/features, and that you should try and save up for these scopes over settling for reduced quality.  How much of a difference would there be between most of my choices and scopes such as the Weaver V24?  Of the scopes I've looked through at retail outlets, I have a hard time noticing significant differences in clarity.  For example, I recently looked through a Bushnell Banner, a Nikon Prostaff, and a Nikon Buckmaster in store, trying to read a pricetag on an item about 45 yds away.  Perhaps it was the in-store lighting, or perhaps a lack of observation on my part, but I was having difficulty finding a difference in resolving ability.  I did notice the Nikons looked slightly clearer compared to the Banner, but otherwise they appeared the same.  Would I really be better off with something like the Team Primos for $200 or 3-9x40 Elite 4200 for $250 vs. something like a Mueller Eradicator for $230?  The lack of adjustable objective would probably limit me to 100 yds., and I'm not sure 9x would be enough magnification to see the holes.

Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

Regarding Burris Z rings, I have had some serious problems with them. I used them on a powerful spring gun and the rings tipped on the bases from recoil. I don't think there is enough clamping area on them. They may work better with the adapter you mention but I would not use a factory 3/8"-11mm dovetail with the Z's.


Excellent, I think I'll go with the adapter vs. the 3/8" dovetail then Smile  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/23/2008 at 18:56
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Originally posted by Spock Spock wrote:

Of the scopes I've looked through at retail outlets, I have a hard time noticing significant differences in clarity.  For example, I recently looked through a Bushnell Banner, a Nikon Prostaff, and a Nikon Buckmaster in store, trying to read a pricetag on an item about 45 yds away.  Perhaps it was the in-store lighting, or perhaps a lack of observation on my part, but I was having difficulty finding a difference in resolving ability.  I did notice the Nikons looked slightly clearer compared to the Banner, but otherwise they appeared the same. 

When people talk about clarity they are covering a lot of ground and perhaps one of the gurus could explain it better. It covers resolution and detail. In other words the test you were doing... Can you read writing at a distance. It includes contrast. It includes color saturation.  Also a scope may be jim-dandy at low and medium magnification and completely washed out at high magnification.

Quote Between the WTC, the APV, and the Eradicator, how would you rate them in terms of clarity/brightness?  I'm also a little bit curious about the Weaver you mentioned.  I've often read on the forums that it's generally better to go with the better glass over higher magnification/features, and that you should try and save up for these scopes over settling for reduced quality.  How much of a difference would there be between most of my choices and scopes such as the Weaver V24?


The APV has fair (Banner level) glass and is a big step up in quality of construction from say BSA etc. It is not in the same league as the Mueller Eradicator. But it's probably the best or tied for the best in the $120 list price class. If you were going to shoot at 50yds and only 50yds it might be a good choice. But because you're going to be changing distance a lot I just don't think you'll be happy with the turrets. Note my experience with the APV is very limited.

The Whitetail Classic is actually a $200+ scope that I believe is discontinued. The view is very bright because it's HUGE. Even finding rings tall enough can be a challenge. The retical is a bit thick but eye position is very forgiving. The only reason I'm not heaping higher praise is that I had parallax errors on my first one and they charge $10 for a warranty repair. The replacment has been pretty good. it's a step up from the APV if you can live with the reticle, the old fashioned turrets and the size.


Whitetail Classic

The Eradicator is actually a pretty good budget varmint scope. The glass is remarkably clear and bright from 8x to 25x. If you can live with at least a 3/8 MOA (3/8" @ 100yds) target dot (and you probably can just fine with a factory rifle) then you'll be in good shape with the Eradicator. It has reasonably accurate target turrets and other than the size of the dot I have no complaints. Again even with a very nice factory rifle you're probably not going to be shooting groups any smaller than the dot. Note, if you turn on illumination the dot appears much bigger. Also Rich at Mueller is very serious about customer service. If you can live with the dot size and the size of the scope then it will probably do everything that you want.


Eradicator w/sunshade. The last 3" is the sunshade.

What the Weaver brings to the party is that it does everything that the eradicator does but just a wee bit better, in a smaller package, and with a much better reticle. The varmint-Plex reticle is a duplex reticle with fine inner cross hairs and a .160 MOA dot.


Weaver V24.

Quote Would I really be better off with something like the Team Primos for $200 or 3-9x40 Elite 4200 for $250 vs. something like a Mueller Eradicator for $230?  The lack of adjustable objective would probably limit me to 100 yds., and I'm not sure 9x would be enough magnification to see the holes.
The Team Primos is a good scope (I own two) but it is not a rimfire scope. That leaves you stuck shooting targets at 100yds only to avoid parallax errors. I would not put one on a Rimfire. The eradicator or the Weaver are better choices.



Edited by sholling - September/23/2008 at 19:10
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/23/2008 at 19:54
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This decision could prove quite difficult for me, as I'm a frequent victim of "analysis paralysis" Angel

It seems the Eradicator might be my best bet, other than the Weaver.  I don't know if I like the idea of the dot though, I like the idea of a Mil-dot or Plex.  Kind of hard to be picky at my price point I suppose.

Originally posted by sholling sholling wrote:

The Whitetail Classic is actually a $200+ scope that I believe is discontinued. The view is very bright because it's HUGE. Even finding rings tall enough can be a challenge. The retical is a bit thick but eye position is very forgiving. The only reason I'm not heaping higher praise is that I had parallax errors on my first one and they charge $10 for a warranty repair. The replacment has been pretty good. it's a step up from the APV if you can live with the reticle, the old fashioned turrets and the size.


By old fashioned turrets, do you mean the little coin slots? Dead
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/23/2008 at 20:03
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Little finger turnable wings.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/24/2008 at 17:51
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Ok, I think I have it narrowed down to WTC or Mueller Eradicator Smile

Would you say that the Eradicator has the best optics between the two?  If so, how much of a difference would there be, anything noticeable out to 100yds?

I also noticed the base I selected will work for dovetails from 9.5mm to 13.5mm.  If I use this on my 9.5mm dovetail, would this cause the scope to be slightly out of alignment with the barrel?  If so, perhaps the following 2-piece base would work better?

17025 B-Square%20Two%20Piece%20Air%20Gun%20Base%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 B-Square Two Piece Air Gun Base
  • 3/8" to "Weaver" Adapter
  • Matte
SWFA: $19.95
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Trying to find the height of this base to see if my ring/base combo will have enough height for the objective to clear the barrel, B-square's site doesn't seem to have the height listed for either base.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/24/2008 at 18:10
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Can't figure out how to edit Whacko

I found another scope that looks interesting, hard to find information on it though

CRFAO11MDT Vortex%206-24x50%20Crossfire%20Rifle%20Scope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 Vortex 6-24x50 Crossfire Rifle Scope
  • Matte
  • Mil-Dot
  • 1"
  • Adjustable Objective
SWFA: $159.95
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/24/2008 at 18:11
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In my opinion the Weaver has better optics than the Eradicator, but either should be fine for what you're trying to do. Where the Weaver pulls far ahead are with its smaller size and a much better reticle. Also an 8.5-25x is pretty useless at short range. I like being able to drop down to 6x for things like an Appleseed shoot. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/24/2008 at 18:22
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Vortex seems to make binoculars from across the price range from barely tolerable to world class but the jury is still out on their scopes. One dead giveaway - find out where it's made. Not where the headquarters is, but where the scope itself is made. Japanese (Bushnell Elite, Weavers, high-end Nikons etc) make scopes are usually excellent, Philippine scopes (mid-priced Nikon and Burris) can be pretty good. Chinese made scopes with the exception of the more expensive Muellers  (Japanese glass in a Chinese scope) are usually pretty bad.  To the best of my knowledge the only Vortex rifle scope that's made in Japan is the Viper.


Edited by sholling - September/24/2008 at 18:23
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/24/2008 at 18:22
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Originally posted by sholling sholling wrote:

In my opinion the Weaver has better optics than the Eradicator, but either should be fine for what you're trying to do. Where the Weaver pulls far ahead are with its smaller size and a much better reticle. Also an 8.5-25x is pretty useless at short range. I like being able to drop down to 6x for things like an Appleseed shoot. 


I screwed up my last post, I meant between the Whitetail Classic and the Eradicator, sorry bout that... Embarrased
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/24/2008 at 18:27
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Originally posted by Spock Spock wrote:

I screwed up my last post, I meant between the Whitetail Classic and the Eradicator, sorry bout that... Embarrased
Optically the Eradicator. Where the WTC shines is non-critical eye position, but the Eradicator's target turrets and finer reticle are better for what you're trying to do.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/24/2008 at 18:39
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Originally posted by sholling sholling wrote:

Vortex seems to make binoculars from across the price range from barely tolerable to world class but the jury is still out on their scopes. One dead giveaway - find out where it's made. Not where the headquarters is, but where the scope itself is made. Japanese (Bushnell Elite, Weavers, high-end Nikons etc) make scopes are usually excellent, Philippine scopes (mid-priced Nikon and Burris) can be pretty good. Chinese made scopes with the exception of the more expensive Muellers  (Japanese glass in a Chinese scope) are usually pretty bad.  To the best of my knowledge the only Vortex rifle scope that's made in Japan is the Viper.


Phones are down for the day, I sent Vortex Optics an e-mail, hopefully they should be able to provide some information. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/24/2008 at 18:47
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I doubt the CSRs know but I'd ask SWFA. I think this actually got discussed here not long ago.
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Originally posted by sholling sholling wrote:

I doubt the CSRs know but I'd ask SWFA. I think this actually got discussed here not long ago.


It seems the Viper is made in the same factory as the Nikon Monarch, couldn't find anything   specifically about the Crossfire series. 

Quote Speaking of Vortex, their products are made in a variety of places.  Their low end binos are made in China.  Their riflescopes are evidently made in the Phillipines.  Their high end binos like the Razor, Stokes series, and Viper are made in Japan.  Therefore, their riflescopes don't share the same glass and coatings as their high end binos.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2008 at 11:49
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Got a response from Vortex:

Originally posted by Vortex Optics Vortex Optics wrote:

<>Hello
Thanks for contacting Vortex Optics.  The Crossfire series of riflescopes and made in China.
Take care


I think I'll go with the Eradicator, you've sold me on it Sharp%20Shooter

Hopefully I should have some pics and a range report within a week, unless I run into trouble.  Thank you both for all of the helpful info!   

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2008 at 17:46
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I'll be looking forward to them.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2008 at 19:36
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Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

Regarding Burris Z rings, I have had some serious problems with them. I used them on a powerful spring gun and the rings tipped on the bases from recoil. I don't think there is enough clamping area on them. They may work better with the adapter you mention but I would not use a factory 3/8"-11mm dovetail with the Z's.

 
I believe there is some confusion here. Unfortunately, it is not unusual when discuissing the Burris rings.
 
tahqua relates problems with "Burris Z" rings.  With respect, I don't believe his statement to be correct. The designation "Zee" as applied to Burris rings denotes a ring made for a Weaver base. A properly-secured Weaver-base ring mounted to a Weaver base will not - I believe cannot  - "tip". (Yes, I understand the "special" abuse dished out by a springer airgun; I have several.)  The rings that tahqua had trouble with, I believe, were Burris "rimfire/airgun" rings, maybe even their Signature" line (which has the polymer inserts). These rings have a reputation for not gripping the rail tighlty enough - and have failed to hold on firearms much less abusive than an airgun.
 
It would be impossible to use Burris "Zee" rings on an 11mm or 3/8" rail.
 
It is not uncommon for folks to refer to Burris rings incorrectly - they call "Signatures" by the term "Zees" and vice versa.  Here's how to keep it straight:
 
"Zee" = Weaver Base.
"Signature" = the polymer insert system.
"Signature Zee" = Weaver base rings with the insert system.
 
So, you can get "Signatures" that are not "Zees" and "Zees" that are not "Signatures", as well as "Signature Zees", which are both.
 
Whew!.
 

 
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Correct you are OldSwede........my bad. They were Signature airgun rings for the 3/8-11mm dovetail. They had the inserts, also.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/06/2008 at 16:01
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I would vote for the MUELLER..................I have three and all are great
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If you can use some medium height signature Zee rings with inserts for a 1" scope PM me ...........I have a new pair that I installed on a rifle recently...........then sold the rifle to a guy that did not want the scope set up. I would sell them cheap !
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Originally posted by Spock Spock wrote:

This decision could prove quite difficult for me, as I'm a frequent victim of "analysis paralysis" AngelIt seems the Eradicator might be my best bet, other than the Weaver.  I don't know if I like the idea of the dot though, I like the idea of a Mil-dot or Plex.  Kind of hard to be picky at my price point I suppose.
Originally posted by sholling sholling wrote:

The Whitetail Classic is actually a $200+ scope that I believe is discontinued. The view is very bright because it's HUGE.
Even finding rings tall enough can be a challenge. The retical is a bit
thick but eye position is very forgiving. The only reason I'm not
heaping higher praise is that I had parallax errors on my first one and
they charge $10 for a warranty repair. The replacment has been pretty
good. it's a step up from the APV if you can live with the reticle, the
old fashioned turrets and the size.
By old fashioned turrets, do you mean the little coin slots? Dead

Let me make it tougher on you... check out the Swift line of scopes. Very good for the price and excellent warranty/CS. I have one that has been on everything from a .22 to .243 to 30-06 to 7mmMag. While there are some drawbacks (for me, not for many others) with the particular model I have, it has participated in the kill of a number of deer, has excellent repeatability, just an all around good scope.
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If we are just going to muddy the waters further, I have just become a fan of Leapers optics. unbelievably clear and very solid.
 
I have one mounted to a .22 caliber heavy springer airgun with a Leapers base and Leupold weaver rings. I am very happy with the results.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2009 at 18:16
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simmons wtc or aetec gets my vote,i aint seen the mueller though.
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