New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - 0 MOA Rail
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Check GunBroker.com for SWFA's No Reserve and No Minimum bid firearm auctions.

0 MOA Rail

 Post Reply Post Reply   Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/03/2015 at 20:30
mj52 View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


Joined: October/19/2012
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 11
Hi,

New bolt action Savage model 10 in 308, new scope Vortex HST 6-24 x50. mil/mil

Nice rifle, nice scope, my bolt manipulation is anything but smooth but that'll get better with repetition.

I currently have a 200 yard zero, funny how a small target makes you miss closer.

The rifle came with a 0 MOA rail. Will I be able to reach out to 600 by dialing it in or will I need to 20MOA rail?

I don't want to hold over I want to be able to dial it in and still have some wiggle room.

This is my first mil/mil scope so I could be overthinking myself into confusion. Since I've never even shot this rifle beyond 200 (only 30 rounds through it) I might as well ask for help now.

When I go out to 600 I'll be able to start at 200, move to 300, back up to 500 and then settle in at 600.

1 click is .36" @100, .72" @200, 1.08 @300, 1.44"@400, 1.80" @500, 2.16" @600

i have a 200 yard zero now.
So at 300 1 click is 1"
at 500 1 click is 1.75"
at 600 1 click is 2.25 +/-" 

I'm not sure how many clicks/mils/ rotations I have left in my elevation turret but finidng that out will be easy enough.

Initally I'll be using bulk 150 grain ammo so I'm not looking to light a match but For right now I'll take all 9s. Once I start relaoding for this caliber I'll look for something better but for right now 9s will keep me on the paper.

So please feel free to offer any suggestions.

Thank You, mj52




Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/04/2015 at 00:02
billyburl2 View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: January/08/2009
Location: Cottonwood, AZ
Status: Offline
Points: 3873
First off, don't think in linear measurements. The reticle is your measuring device, it matches the turrets in your scope. You can also down load targets, for free, that have a mil grid on them. This will make it easier to think only in mils as you are trying to learn.

To get a firm grip on what your data is going to be, you have to figure out how fast the bullet is going and the ballistic coefficients of the bullet. Or you could just go to the range and shoot it in. This is going to take time and a bunch of ammo, not to mention it's all going to change once you start hand loading. In other words, I don't think anybody can tell you for sure if you have enough elevation left in your scope to get out to 600 yards.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/04/2015 at 04:01
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 18339

That scope has 70 MOA of adjustment (19 mils).  If you are set up properly, anywhere near mechanical zero with your zero MOA mount, you will have PLENTY of adjustment to get to 600 yards.  Average stuff... BC about .4, 2800 fps, 200 yd Z, at 600 yards you'll have to come up about 4 mils...   Unless your setup is all whacked out, should be no problem.  With a 20MOA rail, you can easily dial out to 1000... reach that far...  If 600 is your MAX range, you are good to go, equipment-wise. 



Welcome to the OT.



Edited by Kickboxer - August/04/2015 at 04:13
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/04/2015 at 06:14
mj52 View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


Joined: October/19/2012
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 11
bb and Kb thank you both.


"If I'm set up properly, anywhere near mechanical zero."

Like anything else the more you learn the less you know. What is mechanical zero?


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/04/2015 at 08:17
mj52 View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


Joined: October/19/2012
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 11
I just checked how much elevation is left from my 200 yard zero using a 0 MOA rail

I have 9.5 mils UP (without mashing against stop)
I have 10.8 mils DOWN (without mashing against stop)

I wonder if a 100 yard zero would more equally split the # of mils up/down? Actually I'm not even sure if that is important.

1 mil = 3.6"/100 yards

@200.....9.5 x 7.2"   = 68"         available elev. adjustment.
@300.....9.5 x 10.8" = 102"
@400.....9.5 x 14.4" = 136"
@500.....9.5 x 18.0" = 171"
@600.....9.5 x 21.6" = 205"       avialable elev. adjustment.

I like to understand the math behind the science so please excuse the fact I write everything out. I'll eventually make up a card but for right now doing it out long hand helps to pound it home.

Am I correct in assuming a 308 shoots flatter than an a 223? If so, I'll need even less of the available elevation adjustment.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/05/2015 at 05:38
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 18339
Originally posted by mj52 mj52 wrote:

I just checked how much elevation is left from my 200 yard zero using a 0 MOA rail

I have 9.5 mils UP (without mashing against stop)
I have 10.8 mils DOWN (without mashing against stop)

I wonder if a 100 yard zero would more equally split the # of mils up/down? Actually I'm not even sure if that is important.

1 mil = 3.6"/100 yards

@200.....9.5 x 7.2"   = 68"         available elev. adjustment.
@300.....9.5 x 10.8" = 102"
@400.....9.5 x 14.4" = 136"
@500.....9.5 x 18.0" = 171"
@600.....9.5 x 21.6" = 205"       avialable elev. adjustment.

I like to understand the math behind the science so please excuse the fact I write everything out. I'll eventually make up a card but for right now doing it out long hand helps to pound it home.

Am I correct in assuming a 308 shoots flatter than an a 223? If so, I'll need even less of the available elevation adjustment.


You need to listen to billyburl and get off the linear hangup...forget about the inches and concentrate on the mils... you have a mil/mil scope. 


Go read this:

http://www.opticstalk.com/sighting-in-a-mil-mil-scope_topic32905.html

and this:

http://www.mil-dot.com/media/1027/the_derivation_of_the_range_estimation_equations.pdf

Keep your 200 yard zero... it is fine... unless you just want to go to a 100 yard zero.  Get acquainted with the ballistics for the ammo you are using.  A 100 yd zero will not impact the mils up/down.  Get a 20 MOA rail and that will give you 5.8 mils less in the down adjustment and more in the up adjustment.   So, if you actually have 9.5mils UP, that would give you 15.2 UP... you'll need slightly over 11mils to get to 1000yards with the ammo strawman I showed you.  Only about 4mils to get to 600.  If you are not shooting over 600, leave it alone. 

Forget about the inches at XXX yards... that is not helping you.  Later on, if you are shooting long ranges (target shooting), it might be beneficial for you to know those numbers, but I think you have a lot of learning to do before you reach that point.  Just a quick point of order... what exactly do the calculations you show above do for you?  What use will you make of that data?  Not trying to be a hardcase, trying to help you make sense of all this.  Read the articles above, several times, think about them... maybe you will change some things. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/05/2015 at 05:45
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 18339

Oh yeah... mechanical zero.  I'm a big believer in not rewriting things that someone else has explained very well elsewhere.   So go read this:

http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/MechanicalZero.asp

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/05/2015 at 07:06
mj52 View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


Joined: October/19/2012
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 11
Kb,

Thanks, I'll read what you've given me and be back.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/05/2015 at 08:50
mj52 View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


Joined: October/19/2012
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 11
Hi,

I read all three of your links. The first one was pretty straight forward (zeroing using mil/mil). The second article comparing and proving the math behind MOA and Mil was quite a slog. The third about mechanical vs true zero also made complete sense, carefully find your mechanical zero then find your true zero. The difference would determines whether I'm neutral or I've lost/gained elevation.

In my case I ate up some elevation. If I remember correctly I think it was 0.6 mil. I'll verify that just to know for certain. 

My scope is SFP rather than FFP so if I want to use the reticle I believe I need to be set to a specific magnification. This is marked on the adjustment ring and there is a positive click when I hit it.

So in that case, especially now in the beginning, I need to leave my scope on a particular magnification and use the reticle as intended.

I must admit counting to ten is easier.

Thank You, mj52











Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/05/2015 at 11:16
cheaptrick View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar

Joined: September/27/2004
Location: South Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 20472
Originally posted by mj52 mj52 wrote:

Hi,

My scope is SFP rather than FFP so if I want to use the reticle I believe I need to be set to a specific magnification. This is marked on the adjustment ring and there is a positive click when I hit it.

So in that case, especially now in the beginning, I need to leave my scope on a particular magnification and use the reticle as intended.

I must admit counting to ten is easier.

Thank You, mj52



So there's a certain "click" when you hit the desired magnification needed to range your reticle? 

Welcome to Optics Talk. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2015 at 11:29
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 18339
You CAN "correct" for magnification in ranging with a SFP scope/reticle.  There are different accuracies, based upon scope reticle and magnification range adjustment accuracy, but the formula works.

At calibrated magnification power (say 12x)...Target size in inches x 27.77 dividied by mils size of target in reticle  (Ts x 27.77/mil size of tgt) = range in yards.  An easy example:
Ts = 6inches, tgt size in mils = 1, mag power = 12
6 x 27.77/1 = 166.62yards.

At 24x, same target information.

(6 x 27.77)/.5 = 333.24*( (calibrated mag power/actual set mag power) = (12/24) = (.5)) = 166.62yard

At 6x, same target information

6 x 27.77/2 = 83.31 * ((12/6) = 2) = 166.62yards.  Now, for simplicity, these are all special cases with the calibrated power set exactly in the middle of the scope magnification range (6-24 calibrated at 12x).  Some manufacturers calibrate at lowest mag, some at highest, some at 10x, etc.  

 However, the formula works for all magnification power levels.  At least with my Hensoldt…  Accuracy of your reticle and accuracy of your magnification adjustments will be a determining factor in how accurately this method holds.  Zeiss recommends it and I don't have any problems using it.  
Just food for thought and some rigor applied to the commentary on SFP vs FFP scopes.  Never say "can't"
You can "calibrate" your reticle using a yardstick at 100 yards.  A member, JonA, posted a very nice description of how to accomplish that.  You can search for it or when I can get to it, I'll post the link.

You can also read this thread:
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/10/2015 at 20:48
mj52 View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


Joined: October/19/2012
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 11
Kb, Once again Thank You.

Got to shoot today and I tried using the scope on the power used to match reticle to turrets. Pretty staraight forward. I'm still confused as to which right is the right right but I'll get that eventually. I'm still only at 200 but I do see the benefit of using the scope at reticle = turret magnification.

My problem is I think my eye relief is not perfect at this new favorite magnification. I feel like I'm really bobbing and weaving, moving back and forth in order to get into alingment behind the scope.
 
Is there a "Best" magnification to use when setting your eye relief?  In other words should I have it set to the lowest, highest or recticle/turret matching magnification when setting eye releif?

Thanks, mj52
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/10/2015 at 21:17
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 18339
I adjust for eye relief at mid power on a variable.  However what you are experiencing may be a function of "eye box"…"Eye box is defined as the amount of "allowable error" in a shooter's eye relief position, yet still offering a clear target image and full FOV. In other words, an optimum target image and full FOV despite a shooter's eye being slightly in front of, or slightly behind the optimium eye relief position."  Don't remember where I got that definition, but it fits… 

I've never really had any problem with eye relief.  I have a very nice March scope that I am constantly disappointed in eye-box.  Wonderful scope, but it can be wearing trying to "get behind it".  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/12/2015 at 20:56
mj52 View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


Joined: October/19/2012
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 11
Got about 40 rounds through the new reifle/scope and having listened to common sense used the reticle as it was designed. MUCH EASIER.

I felt that I was not setting up behind the scope as comfortably as I should so today I had someone help me get my eye relief where it needed to be for me. I can see shadow creep almost immediately if I'm off even a little.

A bolt action is also more than happy to let you know, by hopping, if you're not in a straight line. It ain't a lot but it ain't right.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/13/2015 at 04:02
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 18339

I'm glad to hear you are getting comfortable with your shooting and making good progress.  Keep it up... it is worth the effort.


 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Similar Threads: "0 MOA Rail"
Subject Author Forum Replies Last Post
1-piece 20 MOA rail mounts/rings dbooksta Rifle Scopes 6
20 MOA rail for Sako 75? Fotis Rings and bases 7
Wanted sako 75 20 MOA rail Fotis Rings and bases 3
Scope Rail 20 or 0 MOA SamC Rings and bases 22
10 or 15 MOA rails? Fotis Rings and bases 1
What size rings for SS 5-20x50 on 20 MOA rail? Ricardus2504 Rings and bases 0
MOA Picatinny rails txcycleguy Rifle Scopes 5
small/light with mil/mil or moa/moa c670809 Rimfire / Airgun 4
MOA/MOA question ba_50 Tactical Scopes 4
Mil/Mil or MOA/MOA Anton Chigurh Rifle Scopes 4


This page was generated in 0.346 seconds.